The facts about tire pump colors.

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The facts about tire pump colors.

Post by Jim Gilmore » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:47 pm

I’ve started a new thread on this subject so that we can separate the facts from guesses.

I am always interested when a small item of detail generates so much interest. I have done some digging on the subject and have found hard documentation that proves what was actually done……….

Note that I say “ what WAS done”…….you cannot prove what was NOT done…….as some seem to think ( …prove they didn’t use gray/OD pumps……..prove they didn’t use black steering wheels……) You cannot prove a negative ……..you cannot prove they did not use tire pumps painted pink………but that does not mean that they did………

I don’t mean to sound preachy here……..but I must explain how research is done to show how the facts are found.

One piece of paper, one document, one photo by itself does not always prove what was done. Data must be (if possible) cross checked to other sources and other data.

With research into jeeps, the researcher must understand how the QMC or ORD Dept worked, how the Manufacturer built things, ran the factory, kept the records, marked and filed the blueprints, what procedures each used, how the contracts were written, adhered to, how the manuals were made, the specifications of the objects, the inspection process, the record keeping and accounting procedures, how the Purchasing Department worked, the parts numbering system and many , many other things that will lead us to the correct conclusions.

That said…………Gray or OD?

I have accessed the actual Quartermaster drawings (blueprints) for the tire pump. Drawing EXAX-1 shows a tire pump with dimensions but does not give a paint spec. This drawing is dated 9/12/29 and was the standard drawing for Govt tire pumps right into and through WW II.

I have recently reviewed the Ford Motor Company blueprints for the PN # 17052 tire pump. Ford part numbers are all the same for a certain item , ie. # 6050 for a cylinder head or # 17052 for a tire pump. It is the prefix that determines what vehicle it goes to or differentiates what type it is.

In the case of the GPW, the part number listed for the pump for this vehicle is GPW-17052. The drawing for this tire pump clearly shows the dimensions such as 20.25” overall length (handle fully pushed in) and also clearly shows that the pump should have the “QMC” markings on the foot of the pump.

However…….

There are two part numbers listed on this drawing .

PN # GPW-17052 …………“O.D.”
PN # GPW-17052-B…….. “Ocean Gray”

Now…….before you gray pump fans start to shout “See that proves they used Gray pumps on GPW’s!……” ……… hold on a minute………..!

Re-read what I wrote at the beginning of this……….only one document, remember…….and you must know how the Manufacturer did things…….

The notation “Ocean Gray” is the tip off here. If the pump was just painted Gray it would just say Gray…..However…….This Gray is VERY specific……it’s ”Ocean Gray”

“Ocean Gray” is the paint color that was specified by the US Navy on its contracts for the Ford GTBA, GTBB, GTBC and GTBS 1 ½ ton low silhouette trucks. This is even spelled out in Ford Accounting Dept. documents to differentiate them from the US Army ones that were delivered in Olive Drab (OD).

OK, this gives us something to go by here…….

Now……let’s look at what the on board tool lists show for the GPW. We will look at the tool lists included with the vehicles because they will show what actually went with the unit.

(..NOTE……….The parts lists (ORD 9 G-503) will show the numbers but we must remember that they are REPLACEMENT part lists. They do not necessarily show what came with the vehicle but instead show the part that will replace the part that came on the vehicle….)

I have several of the Ford form 293, “Tools and Equipment Furnished With Each GPW Reconnaissance Unit” from different dates. The early one does not show the pump as it was added to the list (and the vehicle) later on in production. (Nabholtz has the date wrong when it comes to GPW’s . There were no “mid-42” GPW’s with tire pumps in production)

On the one list dated 5-18-43 it lists….. “ (1) GPW-17052 Tire Pump”

This is the Part Number for the Olive Drab (O.D.) tire pump. Later lists show the same number pump. Even the part lists and Ord 9 show the same number for the pump. The actual Ford production line stock lists show the # GPW-17052 as well.

So…….where did that PN # GPW-17052-B “Ocean Gray” pump go?


Lets look in the tool lists for the vehicles that were painted “Ocean Gray”………..

“..Maintenance Manual for Bomb Service Truck-Mark II and Cargo Truck-Mark I , Contract Number – NORD-3344..“ dated Nov. 1 , 1943, lists in the section on page 189 “ Tools and Equipment ”…. “1 GPW-17052-B Tire Pump”.

Let’s look also at……

“..Maintenance Manual for Bomb Service Truck-Mark 2 and Cargo Truck-Mark 1 and Wrecker Truck-Mark 1 “ , dated April 1 , 1943, lists in the section on page 194 and 195 “ Tools and Equipment ”…. “1 GPW-17052-B Tire Pump”.

So…….now we know where the #GP17052-B “Ocean Gray” tire pump was used………on these US Navy vehicles and NOT on the GPW.

Just to show a little more on the “Ocean Gray”……….the tools on these Navy trucks were also painted “Ocean Gray”

PN # GP-17021-B wrench adjustable
PN # GP-17028-B combination pliers
Along with the other tools and even the GP-17038-B oil can was “Ocean Gray”.

Ford drawings list these tool numbers and the color of the paint along with the ones used on the GPW such as;

PN # GP-17021 “Olive Drab”…….PN # GP-17021-B “Ocean Gray”
PN # GP-17028 “Olive Drab”…….PN # GP-17028-B “Ocean Gray”
PN # GP-17038 “Olive Drab”……PN # GP-17038-B “Ocean Gray”

It should be noted that there is a notation on all the drawings regarding part numbers with a “ –B “ suffix that they were obsolete on 10/14/43.

Later dated drawings show only the Olive Drab paint notation on the tool items and the tire pump as well.


On our subject, the tire pump, the next drawing, dated 3/1/44, has dropped the GPW-17052-B part number and only shows the GPW-17052 “O.D.” pump.
This drawing shows that the pump manufacturer must place their piece mark on the barrel of the pump ¾ of the way up from the bottom. This is the way the pumps were painted and marked right up to the end of production. I should note that ALL of the drawings show a QMC marked pump foot.

So…….to sum it up……Olive Drab tire pump …….GPW …….Gray tire pump…Navy GTB……..


Now for the Willys MB…………..there is no documentation as to the color but…….I do have a Willys Factory photo that clearly shows a OD pump. Well, we would say it was OD as it most certainly is NOT Gray!

Along with that photo is a factory Ford Motor Company photo of the complete tool and equipment for a GPW packed in it’s wooden box, dated 3/9/44

As I do not have the capability to post photos…. I have asked my friend (and author) Bob Notman to post these photos right after this post so you all can see photographic proof as to the use of OD tire pumps on GPW’s and MB’s.

As I said at the start of this long essay……….we have proven what was done….and the OD pump has been proven to be the color……..for jeeps……

It’s is now up to those who want the pump to be gray to prove it is otherwise…..

As for that ORD pump………there is proof that at least one GPW appears to have been shipped with a ORD marked OD painted tire pump. Look at page 52 in Nabholtz’s book at the lower left corner of the photo and you will see a ORD marked pump in the jeep that the soldiers are uncrating. At the present time there is no data that rules out the use of either pump for the later GPW’s. It may be found that more than one vendor was supplying tire pumps for GPW production depending on where the vehicle was assembled.


Until proven otherwise………OD is the color for jeep tire pumps.


Jim Gilmore


Copyright @ James Gilmore 2004


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Post by Sean » Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:50 pm

Great info Jim, it is nice to be able to put this one to bed. I have a OD QMC Walker pump that appears to have original OD paint on it. I also have pics of a grey ORD Walker pump.

On the ORD pump in the pic on page 52 of Nabholtz, this is in a Gpw being uncrated and assembled in Townsville Australia and was available to be viewed on the AWM site along with several others. There is another pic taken at the same time showing a full pic of the pump but for some reason these are no longer on the AWM web site. I have emailed them asking if they are still available to be purchased. Anyway, the square periods cast on the U.S. side of the foot identify this pump as a Dalton pump and not a Walker as believed by some to be the only correct pump for the Gpw.
This tends to back up the theory of more than one supplier of pumps to Ford. The other pic I have seen showing the whole pump clearly shows a hexagonal nut at the top which further identifies it as a Dalton.

Another interesting thing to note in Nabholtz's pic is the fire extinguisher is missing from the 2 clip bracket on the drivers side.

I look forward to seeing the pics Bob will post for you to see what pump is in those.

Cheers Sean
Sean Elliott
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Post by Bob N » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:53 am

Here are the pics that I received from Jim Gilmore. The original files were in the 4MB or so range. I have cut them down to size and made some further "close ups" of some. All very interesting photos. ( You chainy guys might take note of the chain bags. )



Image
Willys factory photo during demonstration of the welder setup. But note the tirepump. Consider the "color" of the pump and the top folded on the floor next to it.
Image
Close up of pump.

Image
The Ford GPW tire pump (and tool kit) fresh from a shipping crate
Image
Close up of pump.

It's good to actually see the documentation. Thank you Jim for sharing your photos.

For a few more "close ups" go to http://www.42fordgpw.com/tirepump.html
Bob N.
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Post by David Croft » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:36 pm

Hi Jim and Bob, I just checked my QMC pump. There is no marks on the side of the tube but the bottom is marked as follows: 305592 BC ( the C lays ontop of the B) 31. It was painted gray. Maybe this is one of the other manufacturers. Thanks for the great information on the tire pumps. David Croft
1944 GPW #240994 Louisville, Ky. Assembly Plant
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Post by lucakiki » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:27 pm

Wow! Very interesting pictures and informations.
If I remember correctly (easy to check it out anyway) in those long threads there was a suggestion that QMC marked pumps were kitchen pumps. So it is a relief to know that pumps so marked are also the ones accounted for on Ford records,whatever their colour.
Besides Robin Bartel posted,answering Claude's enquire, that kitchen pumps were not marked,nor QMC,nor ORD. And that they were painted Olive Drab,for good measure.

Now,many guys kept wondering why the biggest percentage of QMC pumps that surfaced are grey,while olive drab ones are almost unaccounted for. For that matter the same guys would possibly wonder why QMC marked pumps in Ocean grey are not often accounted for among the surfacing QMC pumps.Whatever!
The QMC pump ,until now almost rejected,has acquired a new acceptance,being just a matter of chosing the correct colour.
For Ford,at least.
What about Willys? QMC,at least for a while:but what colour? Any document that would prove QMC pumps were O.D.? A factory picture of a welder jeep,with a pump in its bracket under the seat,and with hood blocks that should help dating it,as a further clue after the bracket. By that time,according to the previous discussions,the tire pump was not questioned : air nozzled ORD,by general consensus, with nobody claiming it was grey.

So what we have is :
A) QMC pumps were used for much longer than what was before believed/agreed upon.
B) Ford pumps were painted olive drab (or ocean grey, not for jeeps)and had a part number that evidentiated this.And such an olive drab painted pump is the one listed on a May 43 packing form.
C) A Ford factory picture ,dated 3/9/44, shows a pump certainly not grey,ready for shipment.The manual depicted would help dating the picture even if the date was not known.

I fail to understand how all the above could be used to state that also Willys QMC marked pumps were painted O.D., but I will be glad to receive a polite explanation from anyone willing to.
The same generous soul will possibly,while at it, also suggest what grey QMC pumps were for,since they were not for kitchens(o.d. and not marked QMC),not for GPWs(o.d.),not for GTBs..(ocean grey)...

Am I desperate to prove the value of my QMC pump,as some bright spot,no prize for guessing, once wisecracked? Of course not!Rattlecans are cheap,and QMC pumps have just increased in value... :wink:
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Post by Sean » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:00 am

PN # GPW-17052 …………“O.D.”
PN # GPW-17052-B…….. “Ocean Gray”

So…….to sum it up……Olive Drab tire pump …….GPW …….Gray tire pump…Navy GTB……..
Jim,
Just curious as to why a GTB would have parts with a GPW prefix in the part number if that part was not used on a Gpw?

Also, how does Ford differenciate between the pump without the chain and blower nozzle and the one with it ??
Willys list:
A-6351...Tire Pump (no chain) use up to truck serial 193040
A-7511...Tire pump (with chain) use after truck serial 193040

or did Ford not add the tire pump till November and therefor only using the pump with chain and nozzle??

Cheers Sean
Sean Elliott
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Post by JAB » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:59 pm

Jim Gilmore wrote:
In the case of the GPW, the part number listed for the pump for this vehicle is GPW-17052. The drawing for this tire pump clearly shows the dimensions such as 20.25” overall length (handle fully pushed in)
I have measured 4 ORD type tire pumps, all of which measure about 21 1/2" & am currently trying to buy a QMC type that also is this dimension. Does this mean that there were different versions of these two styles of pumps? I do remember a while back a thread on different length pumps & fitting them to the under-seat bracket. If there were different versions, were both types/lengths supplied with the MB/GPW's as original (or replacement parts) or????
-Jeff

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Post by Jim Gilmore » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:49 am

Jeff,

I have just measured a Walker #305592 QMC marked pump (my "F" marked one) and it measures 21" . The difference may be due to the leather "cup" inside or the 20.25 measurement in the drawing may have been a minimum overall and not a maximum. This was not noted on the drawing as to which it was.


Sean wrote,

"......Just curious as to why a GTB would have parts with a GPW prefix in the part number if that part was not used on a Gpw?............."


This is a good example of what I meant when I said that the researcher must know how and why the MFG. did things.

The prefix indicates the vehicle that the part goes on. However, when a part is used on another vehicle and the part is the same the original prefix is retained. It is the vehicle that the part goes on first that determines the prefix. Ie......the wrenches on a GPW were the same as the ones on the GP so they retained the GP prefix. Since the tire pump was the same on a GTB as a GPW they retained the GPW prefix. The suffix was added to indicate that the item was changed (a different color) but would still be the same item and would interchange with the original item.

"...........Also, how does Ford differenciate between the pump without the chain and blower nozzle and the one with it ??............."


GPW tire pumps all had the nozzle. This is how the pump hose was to be secured when installed on the mounting brackets. Thread it through the hole and screw it into the fitting on the hose.




Luca,

I was the one that suggest that the gray QMC pumps might be used in the field ranges. It has been pointed out that the range pump uses a different hose end so this may not be the case.

Luca wrote,

"...........Besides Robin Bartel posted,answering Claude's enquire, that kitchen pumps were not marked,nor QMC,nor ORD. And that they were painted Olive Drab,for good measure.............."


No, No , No..............you are jumping to conclusions here. One or two non-marked OD painted field range pumps DO NOT prove that all range pumps were OD nor does it prove that range pumps were not marked nor does it prove that range pumps were NOT gray.

This only proves that one or two field range pumps, existing in 2004, were painted OD and had no markings.

More research into the range pumps would be needed to make more then that claim


"...............What about Willys? QMC,at least for a while:but what colour? Any document that would prove QMC pumps were O.D.? ....."


Hold on here.......what proof is there that Willys used a QMC tire pump at all? What proof is there that Willys used a ORD tire pump? I'm not saying that they did or not.........just that so far we really do not have hard data on this.


"...........A factory picture of a welder jeep,with a pump in its bracket under the seat,and with hood blocks that should help dating it,as a further clue after the bracket. By that time,according to the previous discussions,the tire pump was not questioned : air nozzled ORD,by general consensus, with nobody claiming it was grey............."


Again, what proof is there that the pump shown in my photo is a QMC OR an ORD one? It does appear to be a Walker type pump but it cannot be determined which of the two it actually is.

Are you offering as proof of the use on the ORD pump only "general consensus"? This is no proof at all.

All that we can now say for sure from the Willys photo is that OD tire pumps of the Walker pattern were used on MB's as well as GPW's.

Remember, we need to deal in facts and not assumptions.



Jim Gilmore

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Post by Mike D » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:54 am

Mr. Gilmore,
Just curious, is your F maked pump in script or block lettering for the F?
Mike DeWeese
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3--43 Willys MBT #24248

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Post by Jim Gilmore » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:23 pm

Mike,

..... it's just a "F"...........a standard capital F..........

I think there may be a photo of it somewhere on the "G"........it was discussed some time ago...... :-)


Jim Gilmore

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two questions

Post by lucakiki » Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:15 pm

So,regarding Willys,all we know is that on one welder jeep of presumed serial number higher than 218835 (?) the tire pump was o.d. ?

We do not know,in lack of hard data,wether it was a QMC marked Walkers,or a ORD marked Walkers. We do know,if the hood bumber deduction is correct,that whatever the marking cast on the base,the pump should be fitted with an air nozzle,since that was introduced after truck #193040. Is that correct?
As long as painted o.d. an fitted with the air chuck,a pump QMC marked is not any more,or any less correct than an ORD one finished and fitted in the same way?Is that correct? :?:

So,even taking as hard fact that one only jeep etc. etc. when discussing the pump of an earlier than # 193040 Willys MB ,since we ignore wether it should be QMC marked or rather ORD marked,and since we also ignore wether or not its colour should be O.D. or grey (no other fancy colours please),
why should a QMC grey or even o.d. pump be less or more correct than an ORD o.d. one?
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Post by Jim Gilmore » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:43 pm

Luca wrote,

"........why should a QMC grey or even o.d. pump be less or more correct than an ORD o.d. one?......."

Easy,

There is NO data that proves or even suggests that a gray pump (QMC , ORD or any MFG.) was used in jeep production, MB or GPW.

Nothing..........not a single item of proof or hard data.

So, until some hard data is presented that gray pumps were used....OD is the color that has been proven.

This means that all there is left to argue about for now is the QMC/ORD pump question.

Yes, I have presented only one photo of a OD (or not gray) tire pump on a Willys MB but this is 100% more than anyone else has presented as proof of any other color.

If fact, this is (as far as we know) the only photo of a tire pump on a MB.

You cannot prove if the pump in the photo is a QMC or an ORD one. Just because of the date of the jeep's production it does not mean that the pump is either of the two.

More data is needed to determine this and/or if QMC pumps had the nozzle as do most of the existing ORD pumps. Until this is done either pump could be correct.......as long as it's painted OD.

Let's stick to facts........

Jim Gilmore

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Post by Greg Hines » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:02 pm

Jim,

Does the QMC blueprint indicate when the longer hose came into use? I have a QMC pump with a short hose. I am under the impression that this is an earlier type an not corret for the MB/GPW (MA/GP maybe?). Just for the record my pump also has a big "F" on the base :)

Greg

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Re: The facts about tire pump colors.

Post by Jon » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:02 am

Jim Gilmore wrote:PN # GP-17021-B wrench adjustable
PN # GP-17028-B combination pliers
Along with the other tools and even the GP-17038-B oil can was “Ocean Gray”.

Ford drawings list these tool numbers and the color of the paint along with the ones used on the GPW such as;

PN # GP-17021 “Olive Drab”…….PN # GP-17021-B “Ocean Gray”
PN # GP-17028 “Olive Drab”…….PN # GP-17028-B “Ocean Gray”
PN # GP-17038 “Olive Drab”……PN # GP-17038-B “Ocean Gray”


Jim Gilmore


Copyright @ James Gilmore 2004
Jim,
In an effort to fully understand this.. your statement that the ones maked in bold above should be OD....
GP-17021 - The 11" adjustable wrench should be OD and not black as usually found and as shown in the TM's. SNL's?
GP-17028 - The 6" combination pliers, usually found and shown in TM's as plated or black should be OD??
GP-17038 - The Oiler should be painted???....yet shown in SNL's, pics, TM's etc as plain....unpainted?

I believe most people have missed this part of your post and I think it needs some clarification.

Cheers
Jon
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Post by Frank » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:05 am

I have some pictures of a NOS GP-17038 and it is OD.....
Willys MB`s
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