Rear Oil Seal

1950 - 1952, M38, questions, discussions, regarding anything related to the M38.
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Rear Oil Seal

Post by oldm38 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:43 am

Just got my M38 Started after sitting for 30 years. Ran pretty good but dripping oil at the bell housing. I've read several commets on the victor and felpro oil seals. Whats the best seal to put in and where can I get it? I am planning on replacing the seal without pulling the motor. My brother did one like this 20 years ago and said it was'nt that difficult and is still leak free. Thank you for the help


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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:54 am

The seals 20 years ago were a lot better quality than those currently manufactured. Do not install any rear main seal tat is currently being supplied in Felpro and Victor Kits.
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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by artificer » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:12 am

These 2 threads may help you & there are many more as well....but be aware if the crank journal the seal is running on is corroded/rusty or pitted one is chasing their tail trying to seal same with any type oil seal.
Using the right seal, the right way is no different now, than it ever was.
Problem:
There is some "apparently" brand name rubbish out there being peddled.
http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=180009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... l#p1032003" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Bearing Clearances
by Dean Williams » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:21 pm

I had this same problem on two different engines, one L- head and one f-head, both were late 50's early 60's blocks. Have not had a problem with 40's or early 50's blocks. I recently found a McCord rear main seal kit which is the narrower lip type seal as pictured in John Bartons engine rebuild series. I had one of these before in an old gasket set and it cured one of the engines I had a problem with. The part number for this McCord seal kit is BS-64. If you can find any of these it will solve the problem.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by artificer » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:26 pm

For those interested in cutting to the chase:
There are 3 separate type seals being referred to & terms especially neoprene have been interchanged incorrectly which obviously causes more confusion...

1. There is a woven style often called rope type. There seem to be 2 thicknesses & the narrower section is the correct one to use if using this type. The thicker section type will bind up the shaft. No-one has expressed any problem with this narrower section seal.

2. There is the narrow section "french" type 2 piece "neoprene style" which fit similarly to number 1. No-one has expressed any problem with this narrower section seal.

3. There is a wide section fabric impregnated rubber type material seal which is commonly referred to as Victor or Fel Pro. It seems many have expressed problems with this wide section seal. It appears this one binds up the shaft & is instrumental in causing bearing failure very quickly.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Cuz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Until you know which series engine and which seal is currently installed you cannot make good use of info presented here. You have not told us what casting engine you have and what if any repairs you have made to the engine before you ran it. Remember there are two common sources fro engine oil to leak from the bell housing. One is the rear main crank seal and the other a few inches above it is the rear cam journal welsh plug.

How do you determine which is leaking? Well the tried and proven not smart way is to change the rear seal and then fire her up and see if she still leaks. :cry: The only way you can tell for sure which it is without fixing the wrong seal is to separate the engine from the bell. If you are very fond of laying on your back under the jeep then pull the tranny/bell/transfer out. If you realize it only takes an hour and a half to pull the engine and two hours to put her back you'll realize the easy way is to pull the engine, place it on the engine stand, inspect the rear cam journal plug and if it is leaking replace it. Now is a very good time to pull the pan and inspect the lower end. Rotate the engine upside down and pull the pan. Now you can do a proper job of inspecting the entire bottom end and replacing the seal (either type) very easily and not risk a botched job done under adverse conditions laying on your back under the jeep.

Seal types and crank dimensions. There are really two main types. The rope type and the preformed lip type. Because you have one or the other already in there does mean the last guy used the correct seal or installed it correctly.

Howard covers the issue of crank dimensions well in his CJ2A board post below:
I am confident that the information I have been given is accurate. I have spoken with a machine shop whom I have known for many years. They have built engines for me in the past as well. They have built hundreds of 134 engines.
They were also active with the AERA in this Rear Seal Information. AERA tech bulletin # TB2025 says that the seal surface diameter on the crankshaft must be 2.302 - 2.312 to use the lip seals now available.
This shop says he has measured dozens of different 134 cranks at this area and found as much as 15/1000" diameter larger than others. It makes sense that this is the case. This is why some of us have been OK with the lip seal and some have not. We know that some of us have even been unable to turn the crank with the new seals installed. So he always has the sealing surface machined to 2.30 in diameter and has not had any more problems with the seal/bearing failure. This is the seal surface located between the flywheel flange and the slinger collar.
So if you pull a crank for machining, have your machine shop resurface that narrow section to 2.30. Hopefully your shop will have the capability to do that narrow of a grind on their crank machine.
If you use a rope seal then they are forgiving enough for this variation of diameters from cranks over the years. But if you ever want to instal a lip seal,now or later, have it measured and machined if needed to 2.3.
I ,of course, welcome discussion further but as I said. This makes sense out of all the questions I have raised and the incosistent answers given by many.
Howard F Jewett
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Image

Image
Rope seal

Image
Preformed seal

As has been said above you can change the rope type seal on your back under the engine but you can't do the best job that way. Read thru the 45 maintenance manual procedure and you'll see why using the Chines finger trap tool to pull the top seal over the crank does not do the best job of packing the seal in the groove.
Image
Image
Image
Image

What ever your choice is make sure you inspect the crank closely.

In this photo you can see why just a seal would not fix the leak.
Image

This CJ2A page post makes for an excellant read.
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/engin ... page3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cuz (AKA Wes K)
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 6? M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D & 47 T3-C

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by oldm38 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:28 pm

Where can I get the seal you describe in number 2 and who makes it ?
Thanks

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by oldm38 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:14 pm

The number on the front of the block is MC94302.
Thanks

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by artificer » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:42 pm

Wes indicated: There are really two main types. The rope type and the preformed lip type.
Actually this is the primary misunderstood problem issue....there are actually 3 TYPES not 2 as clearly shown by JB in his series.
The "Pre-Formed" type Wes showed pictured that sits in the groove of the main bearing cap & across the flat hanging out the back of the cap & block is definitely one to avoid.
I don't know how many times this has been said, but this is the only seal anyone has had trouble with to the best of my understanding.
Marty shows perfect pictures of what happens & why this seal fails immediately in service.
CLICK HERE: http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... l#p1032003" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was good Wes showed the corrosion damaged crankshaft which putting new seals of any sort on would not stop leaking one iota (even the beloved rope seal).
Just another point added to Wes' is that transmissions often leak into the bell housing & this can be confused for engine oil by some & some use engine oil in transmissions.
Where can I get the seal you describe in number 2 and who makes it ?
NOW to the type of non rope seal which works fine....I have received these in OMXI ADA engine overhaul kits (they also have the rope seals if you want to use them which I don't). There are other sources no doubt....you'll just need to check them out.
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TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Cuz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:05 pm

Just to be sure we don't confuse this issue further as I said above there are two basic seal types used by Willys on the 134 engines. Rope type and preformed type. There are several versions of each type which has been expounded upon well enough.

Rope type
a-thinner production
b-thicker production

Preformed type
a-Factory original stock
b-Victor
c-Felpro
d-Omix-Ada
From the indicated posts on the 2A page comes this list of sub-types:
Summarizing the 4 Preformedseal types:
Victor/Felpro w/wide fabric surface
Larrys Victor "v-belt" profile, w/out flange, narrow surface
Larrys "made in USA" w/wide non-fabric surface
Bartons "reverse lip", w/out flange, narrow surface
You can draw your own conclusions after reading the articles which you wish to use.

The later cranks designed for use with the preformed seals (correct dimensions) do not show any issues with the preformed seal but where most any of the preformed seals were used on original rope seal cranks they suffered when that crank's dimensions did not fall within the late Willys crank specs.
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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:21 pm

AERA Information is misleading as the Rope Seals fit early thru late 134 cu in blocks perfectly and the later steel Backed Lip Type metal Seal developed by Victor for Willys (Part NO. 800093 in the early 50's was also used as a retrofit option on early engines in lieu of the Rope packing WO 637237. The Victor Oil seal Problem started with them flooding the market with faulty 800093 Oil seals over the past dozen years, and there is no easy way to ID the good Seals mad by Victor prior to the bad ones. Jeep mechanics of the 40's thru 70's never had a problem with the 800093 prior to the late 90's.
If one cares to do the research, the 647078 Gear type Crankshaft was installed starting with CJ-2A jeep which used the Rope 637237 Packing and was used in the CJ-3A prior to the changeover to the steel backed rubber lip 800093 Rear Main Seal. The 647078 Crankshaft was used thru the end of "F-Head" production in 1971 on the CJ-5 and was the crankshaft installed in all M-38/M-38A1 Jeeps.
This argument is a bit hard to comprehend to most who want to insist that the crankshafts had differences at the rear main seal dimension. It appears that most have no actual 50's-60's Jeep engine rebuild experience back during the time when Victor was making trouble free 800093 Jeep rear main rubber Lip seals that were being routinely installed in Jeeps of all production years.
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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:27 pm

[quote="Cuz"]Just to be sure we don't confuse this issue further as I said above there are two basic seal types used by Willys on the 134 engines. Rope type and preformed type. There are several versions of each type which has been expounded upon well enough.

Rope type
a-thinner production
b-thicker production

Preformed type
a-Factory original stock
b-Victor
c-Felpro
d-Omix-Ada
From the indicated posts on the 2A page comes this list of sub-types:
[quote]Summarizing the 4 [b][u]Preformed[/u][/b]seal types:
Victor/Felpro w/wide fabric surface
Larrys Victor "v-belt" profile, w/out flange, narrow surface
Larrys "made in USA" w/wide non-fabric surface
Bartons "reverse lip", w/out flange, narrow surface[/quote]

You can draw your own conclusions after reading the articles which you wish to use.

The later cranks designed for use with the preformed seals (correct dimensions) do not show any issues with the preformed seal but where most any of the preformed seals were used on original rope seal cranks they suffered when that crank's dimensions did not fall within the late Willys crank specs.[/quote]

Explain please:
Rope Seal
a-thinner production
b-thicker production
There was only one Willys Part Number for all WO-637237 Packing, Crankshaft Rear End for all willys Jeeps that used the packing, where do you get "thick" and "thin" it is not mentioned an any willws service or parts manual.

On the Victor 800093 Rear Main Seal that was OEM to Jeep, the trouble free versions used in the 50's did have a woven appearance on the crankshaft sealing surface which was graphite impregnated, later 800093 seals seen in the 60's and up appeared to have just rubber, and 25 years later the current bad batch of 800093 seals with rubber are the ones giving trouble.

You indicate "Preformed Type"
a- Factory original stock
b- Victor

The "Factory original stock" and "Victor" were both marked with Willys Number 800093 and were both mate by Victor- they are the same OEM molded rear main seal installed originally by Willys. Victor was the OEM supplier for Rear Main Seals for the 4 Cyl Jeep engines.

How did you arrive at two types of Preformed seals when they are both the same OEM Victor?
Your "draw your own conclusion" suggestion alludes that only the " original rope seal cranks" are having the problem with the preformed seal, that is not correct as all crankshafts from any 4 cyl Jeep engine are having problems with the present OEM type 800093 Seal manufactured by Victor and sold in aftermarket kits marketed by Felpro.
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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Cuz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:51 pm

Joel,

Go read the Keith Buckley's comments and data on the crank variances in the referenced posts before you BS here on this post.

Joel,

Go read the associated posts where the members have measured their new rope seals from different manufactures as compared to the Willys NOS before you spread your BS here.

You didn't raise any of these BS questions when you posted after Keith on the referenced post yet you insist in applying your ridiculous and childish interference and confusion game here after my post. :roll:
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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by artificer » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:32 am

Willys….Rear Bearing Oil Seal….woven fabric type…Motor Auto Repair Manual 1952 (Page 786)
Remove the old seal & place the new seal in the groove with both ends projecting above the parting surface of the cap. Force the seal into the groove by rubbing down with a hammer handle or smooth stick until the seal projects above the groove by no more than 1/16”.
Now I do not agree with this fitting procedure 100% but it points out one important thing (above the groove by no more than 1/16”).

Most vehicles we worked on early in our trade all had these type seals so excuse us if some things like "FEEL" which are second nature are not readily explainable, in writing.

Some of the crappy modern seals miss the 1/16” barrier & are not compressible like the woven style or the lip style (number 2 on JB’s pics) which on close inspection clearly shows the cut-out recess which forms the lip & can be compressed.

The faulty Wictor (LOL) or Fel Pro that have the real issues fit over the main bearing cap with probably more than 1/16” of basically incompressible rubberized fabric material….I’ll let you make your own judgement on what will result....although Marty’s pictures show it all.

So let's not forget there are a lot of younger engine machinists, re-conditioners, re-builders & some other types who come out of the woodwork when they smell a dollar who don't even know the basics of the seal they are trying to fit for you.

There has been enough education on the numerous G & other threads to help you make good non emotive decisions. So start asking the hard questions & get honest answers!

How many people have been burned & told they were responsible for someone else's mistake through incompetence?

That is one thing I'm sure we would all like to know, so why not "belly up to the bar" & start talking as the Aussies say?
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TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:27 am

[quote="Cuz"]Joel,

Go read the Keith Buckley's comments and data on the crank variances in the referenced posts before you BS here on this post.

Joel,

Go read the associated posts where the members have measured their new rope seals from different manufactures as compared to the Willys NOS before you spread your BS here.

You didn't raise any of these BS questions when you posted after Keith on the referenced post yet you insist in applying your ridiculous and childish interference and confusion game here after my post. :roll:[/quote]

Cuz,
It is best to stay on track with the issue, which is the present Victor 800093 marked Seal that touched off this Rear Main Seal Topic and the events pointing to it.
Many are trying to be helpful and are reporting information they have gathered. Much of it is about alternate "no name" seals and lacks definition using non- uniform terminology and "creative" descriptions as follows:

Thinner production
Thicker production
Victor/Felpro w/wide fabric surface
Larry's Victor v-belt profile
Larry's made in USA w/wide non-fabric surface
Barton's reverse lip w/out flange

Now just how is a new Jeep owner with a Rear Main Seal problem supposed to take all of these layman's and amateurish descriptions and "draw your own conclusion"?

The problem started 10 or so years ago with the Victor supplied seals. Victor was the OEM engine Gasket and Oil Seal supplier to Jeep during the MB/GPW, CJ2A thru CJ-5 Universal Jeep, M-38/M-38A1 Days.
Willys Jeep engines during that period had the WO-637237 Rope Type Seal which was installed on both the Chain and GearType Engine or the WO-800093 Lip type seal.
The Gear type engine had the Rope 637237 Packing installed starting with CJ-2A continuing thru CJ-3A production until around 1951-1952 when Willys changed to the Steel Backed Lip Seal WO-800093. This seal is made by Victor only, the originals installed and sold by Willys have the Willys Part No. 800093 and "Victor" molded on them in raised print. No other brand was marked this way. These seals WO-800093, became optional with the WO-637237 Rope Seal and could be used in all earlier engines that had Rope Packings, there are old Willys mechanics Bulletins confirming this. The 50's Jeep Factory Service Manuals make reference to the "new type rear bearing seal which can be substituted for the wick type packing seal".

The WO-637237 Rope Seal was deleted from the Willys parts system in the mid 50's and was no longer available from Jeep, just the 800093 being available thru Jeep to service all Jeep engines with after that date. Victor and others did continue to provide the Rope Seal in OH Kits and at one time included both type seals as an option to the installer.

The Crankshaft installed in all Jeep 4 Cyl Gear Type Engines was WO-647078, it was installed in every gear type engine from CJ-2A thru CJ-5, and in all M-38/M-38A1 Jeeps from beginning to end of production. This Crankshaft was installed at first with Rope Packing (seals) 637237, and changed over to WO-800093 Steel Backed Lip Seal in mid CJ-3A production.
There is no way to ID a 647078 Crankshaft as coming from a factory installation with Rope or Molded Lip seal. Jeep engines were rebuilt at dealers, Machine Shops, small town garages, gas stations, and by back yard mechanics using either the 637237 Packing or the new 800093 seal, there were no problems until the late 90's when Victor started supplying the faulty 800093 seal that is causing all of this controversy. Victor still provides this faulty seal to Felpro, NAPA and the other outlets for Jeep installation.

Cuz,
I doubt you have any practical experience with this installation as your information quotes other sources, the internet, etc., an occasional manual, Keith Buckley, etc., but never from your own experience. You rarely provide a solution, but just "keep kicking the can" along. Others have tried to give good faith advice with contribution of their own technique such as "indexing" which is difficult and will not work with these faulty Victor 800093 marked seals.

I am quoting from practical experience as a professionally trained Civilian and Military Jeep service technician and partsman, and was first advised of this problem with replacement Victor molded seals in the 90's by Felpro engineers later connected with AERA. There is no "BS" involved as you suggest, just six decades plus of hands on experience using good Jeep factory and US Army service procedure with a few hundred jeep engine overhauls under my belt as a trained automotive machinist.

The best solution to the currently available Victor 800093 is to avoid them. As far as Rope seals, it is best to find old stock made using asbestos and using only rope seal kits made specifically for Jeep installation.
I have been lucky enough to be able to find a few original Rope Seals and earlier Victor Molded 800093 seals from old dealer stock and use them instead of currently available rear main seals.

NOTE:
Those who own a copy of Bob Westerman's excellent "THE CIVILIAN JEEP MODEL CJ-3A" will find information on the seal changeover on Page 96.
Last edited by Joe Gopan on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rear Oil Seal

Post by Cuz » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:14 am

Joel enough of your condenscending lip service. Read the articles.
The problem started 10 or so years ago with the Victor supplied seals. Victor was the OEM engine Gasket and Oil Seal supplier to Jeep during the MB/GPW, CJ2A thru CJ-5 Universal Jeep, M-38/M-38A1 Days.
Willys Jeep engines during that period had the WO-637237 Rope Type Seal which was installed on both the Chain and GearType Engine or the WO-800093 Lip type seal.
The original post had the problem with a new issue lip seal not your pet 1990's vintage Victor. The topic expanded to show the root cause for seal failures over the years. The problem started in the 50's when Willys changed their machining tolerances on the crank and introduced the lip type seal and then approved it's use on older rope seal cranks in their factory service manuals without any published warning that the older crank machining tolerances may not have left you with an acceptable surface on which to use a lip type seal..

You can do well to keep your comments focused on the topic and not my experience in the field vs yours which no one here is interested in and of which I have an adequate supply of since I have been rebuilding my jeep 134's since 1970. And I have not had any short use seal failures because I have stayed with the rope type seal.

Howard has attempted to use the thread to gather technical specifications to help folks determine which seals are out there, how to distinquish them from each other and what dimensional info is available for the seals and the engine components. This is technical and not an issue of how many seals Joel Go--pan has installed since he started building jeeps at age 5 in 1946.

So if you will climb down off your hand built throne for a minute and contribute useful data or just turn your computer off for a day or so we can provide some help here instead of inflating personal egos..
Cuz (AKA Wes K)
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 6? M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D & 47 T3-C


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