Broken rear axle !
- JAB
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I have a collection of broken axles (mostly from my trail rig), many of which are broke just like yours. I should gather them all up for a family photo!
BTW, they're not all mine! I'm not that abusive! Most are from other folks rigs that I've repaired or installed new gear sets in. I never throw anything out (just ask my wife ) Don't laugh, but junk like that comes in handy. A short stub shaft held in a vice can support the carrier as you work on it, sometimes a broken shaft can be cut down for the other side, etc. Didn't (Jimmy Stewart played him in the movie, what was his name?????) the guy who invented some of our better firearms do so in prison using an old axle shaft for the barrel? Oh boy, now we're going off on a tangent!
BTW, they're not all mine! I'm not that abusive! Most are from other folks rigs that I've repaired or installed new gear sets in. I never throw anything out (just ask my wife ) Don't laugh, but junk like that comes in handy. A short stub shaft held in a vice can support the carrier as you work on it, sometimes a broken shaft can be cut down for the other side, etc. Didn't (Jimmy Stewart played him in the movie, what was his name?????) the guy who invented some of our better firearms do so in prison using an old axle shaft for the barrel? Oh boy, now we're going off on a tangent!
-Jeff
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Looking at your pix the groove in the carrier looks pretty deep just where the bearing would normally terminate when in place. This can be an integrity (strength) issue but difficult to tell with just the photo.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
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- petesilfven
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You're thinking of Marsh Williams, who developed the tappet type gas system as used on the M1 carbine while he was incarcerated down South for killing another man.JAB wrote:I have a collection of broken axles (mostly from my trail rig), many of which are broke just like yours. I should gather them all up for a family photo!
BTW, they're not all mine! I'm not that abusive! Most are from other folks rigs that I've repaired or installed new gear sets in. I never throw anything out (just ask my wife ) Don't laugh, but junk like that comes in handy. A short stub shaft held in a vice can support the carrier as you work on it, sometimes a broken shaft can be cut down for the other side, etc. Didn't (Jimmy Stewart played him in the movie, what was his name?????) the guy who invented some of our better firearms do so in prison using an old axle shaft for the barrel? Oh boy, now we're going off on a tangent!
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- JAB
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That's it! Thanx Pete!petesilfven wrote:You're thinking of Marsh Williams, who developed the tappet type gas system as used on the M1 carbine while he was incarcerated down South for killing another man.JAB wrote:I have a collection of broken axles (mostly from my trail rig), many of which are broke just like yours. I should gather them all up for a family photo!
BTW, they're not all mine! I'm not that abusive! Most are from other folks rigs that I've repaired or installed new gear sets in. I never throw anything out (just ask my wife ) Don't laugh, but junk like that comes in handy. A short stub shaft held in a vice can support the carrier as you work on it, sometimes a broken shaft can be cut down for the other side, etc. Didn't (Jimmy Stewart played him in the movie, what was his name?????) the guy who invented some of our better firearms do so in prison using an old axle shaft for the barrel? Oh boy, now we're going off on a tangent!
Plot Synopsis by Hal Erickson
The tougher postwar screen image of James Stewart is given a good workout in the fact-based Carbine Williams. In 1952, the world at large knew Marsh Williams as the developer of the US Army's M-1 carbine rifle. The film builds up to this event by detailing Williams' previous existence as a bootlegger and embittered prison inmate, sentenced to 30 years at hard labor for killing a revenue agent. After enduring the rigors of chain-gang life and solitary confinement, Williams (Stewart) gets his mind off his troubles by dreaming up a new type of automatic-gun piston. He is encouraged in this endeavor by prison warden H. T. Peoples (Wendell Corey), previously Williams' bitterest enemy. As Williams continues to develop his innovative weaponry notions, his wife Maggie (Jean Hagen) and Warden Peoples try to overcome penal bureaucracy to win a pardon for Williams. Some TV prints of Carbine Williams have been colorized by computer; despite this artistically offensive practice, the strong dramatic and human values of the story still shine.
-Jeff
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- David V
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Well, a last question - I replaced the shaft yesterday and off we drove in to the sunset again. Although I'm listening for strange noises !artificer wrote:
In the real world we would be replacing axles in pairs but this is fairly impractical with vintage rigs.
I'm wondering whether I should replace the other half axle to avoid one being older and maybe weaker. What are your thoughts on this ? Buying the part is not a problem.
Oh yes - I replaced the diff. oil seals - the original ones were a sort of metal cup with a leather seal and a washer ? The leather was eaten up a bit but still didn't leak !
David
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If the axle you fitted was new and you can get a new other, I would. If second hand/used I would leave as is. Great to see you on the road again. Just enjoy and you shouldn't get any noises etc. if you cleaned properly!
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
- Mark Tombleson
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I noticed David V said it was the right side shaft that broke. That is the short side.
My right side shaft was replaced... seems after 11/76 for $31. My Brother in law can't remember this so my Father in law must have replaced it himself or had some shop do it.
I'm curious, does there seem to be more short shafts breaking than long shafts?
Anyone remember which shaft they had break?
My right side shaft was replaced... seems after 11/76 for $31. My Brother in law can't remember this so my Father in law must have replaced it himself or had some shop do it.
I'm curious, does there seem to be more short shafts breaking than long shafts?
Anyone remember which shaft they had break?
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See the nice shiny seal surface near the axle splines on Mark's pics. And just $31!!!
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
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Never had an axle shaft fail on me but I would think the answer will be the short shaft.Mark Tombleson wrote:... I'm curious, does there seem to be more short shafts breaking than long shafts?
Anyone remember which shaft they had break?
If all the shafts are otherwise created equal (ie no manufacturing defects), it should be the short shaft which breaks more often. This is because as the shaft transmits power to the wheel it will tend to twist along its length. The twisting causes shearing forces within the material, which for a given angle of twist will be greater in a shorter (but otherwise similar) shaft as the twist has to be accomodated in less length. The failure usually occurs around the splines as the machining and sharp corners etc in that region favour the formation of cracks within the material.
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Replacing heaps of earlier Land Rover axles before the salisbury differentials came in, usually the short axle. When the salisbury type differential came in the failures shifted from axles to the differential carrier. A much more costly exercise and a real pain in the butt.
Why short?
The axle works like a torsion bar and does twist quite a bit. The shorter the axle, the less torsional twist available.
Pulling a broken International truck axle once there was a forging mark (line) on the axle which showed more than 360 degrees of rotation before the spline snapped off. Looked like a very wide pitch thread helix.
Why short?
The axle works like a torsion bar and does twist quite a bit. The shorter the axle, the less torsional twist available.
Pulling a broken International truck axle once there was a forging mark (line) on the axle which showed more than 360 degrees of rotation before the spline snapped off. Looked like a very wide pitch thread helix.
Last edited by artificer on Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
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Due to the direction the driveshaft rotates the differential gears, the right rear will always be the main drive wheel going forward, unless you have a powr-lok installed. If you've ever seen anyone pop the clutch on a standard rear wheel drive car it's always the right rear tire that spins (posi-traction etc. excepted). Same thing if you're stuck in snow or mud. The RR axle shaft takes the majority of the torque therefore it becomes the one prone to breakage. The length of the shaft is a non-factor.
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I've only had one go in five years and that was the long (left) one.
A few months after I replaced it, I took it out again for some reason and all the splines had twisted by the thickness of one spline. Apparently there is a batch of dodgy half shafts knocking around! The same goes for pintle hooks, incidentally.
Don't buy the cheapest - ensure your repalcement is a decent one made for the French Army.
A few months after I replaced it, I took it out again for some reason and all the splines had twisted by the thickness of one spline. Apparently there is a batch of dodgy half shafts knocking around! The same goes for pintle hooks, incidentally.
Don't buy the cheapest - ensure your repalcement is a decent one made for the French Army.
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- JAB
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I have to disagree. There is no "drive gear" on conventional differentials. I think this is one of the most often perpetuated myths concerning differentials. The reason the right rear usually spins (looses traction) is related more to the fact that the driver is seated on the left side (more weight) or due to road surface conditions or that the vehicle is turning a tight right (right side "lifts" allowing traction to break) more than any other internal friction factor. Look at how the carrier assembly is built, (not including posi, etc. units) & you'll see that no side is favored over the other. They each have their own side-gear which meshes with other gears that are nestled in the carrier. When the carrier rotates the side gears rotate with it but at varying speeds comensurate with the load. If you play with it on the bench it will look like one side is going backwards; while it's possible to do that, in-use it's usually that both sides are actually rotating forward but that one side is rotating at a much slower rate than the carrier itself, which gives the appearance that it's going backwards. Which wheel slips on an "open" rear-end is determined by the load/traction condition, not which side it's on. It is a length thing as all other factors are essentially equal from the mechanical standpoint.Larry E Long wrote:Due to the direction the driveshaft rotates the differential gears, the right rear will always be the main drive wheel going forward, unless you have a powr-lok installed. If you've ever seen anyone pop the clutch on a standard rear wheel drive car it's always the right rear tire that spins (posi-traction etc. excepted). Same thing if you're stuck in snow or mud. The RR axle shaft takes the majority of the torque therefore it becomes the one prone to breakage. The length of the shaft is a non-factor.
Larry
-Jeff
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Agree with Jeff, over here it is the left rear which lets go first.....why in auto appllications are suspension torsion bars quite long?.....mopar vehicles and some toyota pick ups for example.....long bars can be adjusted more finely from soft to hard because they twist over a longer distance. Short would exhibit a hard ride, have little adjustment and be prone to breakage if used. Short would be cheaper, but no one uses them as far as I know.
This analogy can definitely be co-related to axles which break primarily due to shock loading and not being able to absorb that shock i.e. short axle.
This analogy can definitely be co-related to axles which break primarily due to shock loading and not being able to absorb that shock i.e. short axle.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
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