1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

If you have an unrestored WWII jeep, we would like to see pictures, and hear your comments. NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.
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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:36 pm

JAB wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:31 pm
Yeah, but not just anybody can turn their jeep up-side-down to let it soak.... :shock:
Or hang it from a tree :D :D
But they better learn the tricks !!

Ray


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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by JAB » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:04 pm

Lockwashers arrived today! Thanks Ray!!! Good timing too, as I just recieved a notice from Ron that my main bearings (and other parts) are on the way too!
-Jeff

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:07 pm

JAB wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:04 pm
Lockwashers arrived today! Thanks Ray!!! Good timing too, as I just received a notice from Ron that my main bearings (and other parts) are on the way too!
That is great Jeff !!

Ron has shipped all the rear end bearings to me as well, the new Rzeppas and dash flip switch arrived .
It is nice to have parts arriving to start the rebuilds :D

I also ordered 2 more worm gears from Staman, just to have a couple spares for future jeeps !

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:57 pm

Hello,

The parts came in from Ron,
and I started back at the motor, trying to set the crank end play.

So I measured the shims in the box, and found the sizes were different than what is printed.

But I found some .002, as well as a .004, shim, and a .007 one as well.

So since there were none, and the range is between .004 and .006, I put a .004 and a .002 in as shims.
Resized_20230124_163654.jpeg
Resized_20230124_163651.jpeg
Resized_20230124_163751.jpeg
Resized_20230124_164035.jpeg

Now, since there was a little minuscule wear on the thrust washer , and I had a new one from Ron, I replaced it.
Resized_20230124_164103.jpeg
Original pictured
Resized_20230124_165717(1).jpeg
Black replacement one.
Should I leave the original one in, or is replacing it a routine practice ?
I am speculating that the original thrust washer, also referred to as the crank spacer, will give me a more even feeler reading since it is worn into the new bearings, as the engine had been run since rebuild.
Resized_20230124_165907.jpeg
Here we can see the original sprocket spacer slid into position.
Resized_20230124_175008.jpeg
Here I stacked it all up and tightened the nut down to seat everything.
Resized_20230124_174147.jpeg
The upper half of the bearing reads .004
Resized_20230124_174227.jpeg
However, the lower is .005 and .006 around the bearing.

Now does this mean that the reading will vary , but still falls within the .004 to .006 range ??

The manuals are not clear, what so ever on it .

The crank is pulled all the way forward.

If anyone has any ideas, do let me me know !

I will just for curiosity swap the old thrust washer back in again, and tighten down to see if it gives a uniform reading, unless there is supposed to be a range of differences between top and bottom ?



Best Regards,
Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by JAB » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:41 pm

Hi Ray,

The rule of thumb is to replace anything that's obviously worn. I've never seen one of those thrust washers actually wear though, other than a polished surface. The (babbit) bearing it rubs on is very soft and is the sacrificial part. There really shouldn't be a difference as the parts are all machined square or parallel to each other. Did you try turning the crank and re-measuring to be sure that the thrust washer is seated square? Maybe the bearing cap is sitting on a piece of grit, slightly cocking it to give you that variation? If you measured with a dial indicator you would never have found that, you would have just "read" total movement, so your inspection technique has merit! Since the engine has already been run, and set at zero endplay, that area certainly should be worn square by now. What harm is there in double checking under the bearing cap for debris as well as checking (substituting the old one?) the thrust washer?
-Jeff

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:01 pm

JAB wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:41 pm
Hi Ray,

The rule of thumb is to replace anything that's obviously worn. I've never seen one of those thrust washers actually wear though, other than a polished surface. The (babbit) bearing it rubs on is very soft and is the sacrificial part. There really shouldn't be a difference as the parts are all machined square or parallel to each other. Did you try turning the crank and re-measuring to be sure that the thrust washer is seated square? Maybe the bearing cap is sitting on a piece of grit, slightly cocking it to give you that variation? If you measured with a dial indicator you would never have found that, you would have just "read" total movement, so your inspection technique has merit! Since the engine has already been run, and set at zero endplay, that area certainly should be worn square by now. What harm is there in double checking under the bearing cap for debris as well as checking (substituting the old one?) the thrust washer?
Thanks Jeff,

I will get onto it tomorrow, and check things out.
Will try the old thrust washer, it wasn't worn, maybe polished as you mentioned.

If I can correct that and get an even reading around the thrust washer, then it will be on to adding the lock washers under the bearing caps.
I will also pull the pistons to verify that the rings are properly installed, I am hoping they are.
Next if they are good, torque back down, and add the nos pal nuts.

After that will check the tappet clearances, and remove the valves to clean them up from any carbon or gunk, before putting them back in.

Hopefully the engine will check out good, and be ready to button up !!

Best Regards,
Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by parker007 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:23 pm

i would use a dial indicator to check end play.

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:31 pm

parker007 wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:23 pm
i would use a dial indicator to check end play.
Thanks Parker,

I don't have one yet, so for now I have to use the feeler gauge, but will soon.

My friend is letting me borrow all the special tools to rebuild the rear end, but I have decided I want to get all my own tools,
since I don't like having to borrow tools that I should have for myself.

I will have to start finding what I will need.
It will be good to have the tools soon !

Best Regards,
Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:23 am

JAB wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:41 pm
Hi Ray,

The rule of thumb is to replace anything that's obviously worn. I've never seen one of those thrust washers actually wear though, other than a polished surface. The (babbit) bearing it rubs on is very soft and is the sacrificial part. There really shouldn't be a difference as the parts are all machined square or parallel to each other. Did you try turning the crank and re-measuring to be sure that the thrust washer is seated square? Maybe the bearing cap is sitting on a piece of grit, slightly cocking it to give you that variation? If you measured with a dial indicator you would never have found that, you would have just "read" total movement, so your inspection technique has merit! Since the engine has already been run, and set at zero endplay, that area certainly should be worn square by now. What harm is there in double checking under the bearing cap for debris as well as checking (substituting the old one?) the thrust washer?
Hello Jeff,

Can you list the tools that I will need to get to get started having the correct instruments to measure the end play, and all the tools I will
need for the rear end differential rebuild.

It certainly is time to go shopping :D !!

I have the set plate ordered from Gary, so waiting for that to arrive.
Also have an Armstrong US made torque wrench, with the lower torque settings needed.

Any recommendations on brands ?

I see the dial indicators on ebay, magnetic base ones I am thinking would be the best, inch pattern of course.

This would be a good thing to list on the G for others to know what to get when they start their rebuilds.

I will also post the tool list on the MB restoration post as well.

Thanks !

Ray

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by JAB » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:01 pm

Ray, I think it would nearly impossible to list all the tools that are used. In fact, which tools are used can vary depending on any issues that come up, because....Bubba. A good understanding of mechanics and bearings and good clean shop practices is a must, especially for jeeps as they seem to get the most abuse. The factory CJ and Jeep Utility Vehicle manuals from the '50s and '60s are really good sources for technique and specs. Forget the WWII jeep manuals for this job. To get started at the most simple basic level, high quality bearing pullers and accessories are a must. I bought the factory tools (Miller Tool) that were available to Jeep dealers in the '50s through the '60s (covering models 23, 25, 44, and possibly 41) and that set came with so many special bearing pullers and installers (that used a simple hardened threaded rod to pull bearings in or out) that I was able to copy their idea for the larger model 60 size and made then in a lathe at work. According to my machine repair instructors and various bearing seminars I attended through work, premature bearing failue is nearly always due to improper handling and installation (damaging them through poor installation methods, or letting contaminants enter). Improper lubrication, including water or other contaminants entering after installation, and abuse, are a distant 2nd and 3rd on the list, so having proper bearing installation and removal tools and proper shop practices are a must because most of the bearings are installed and removed, and re-installed, several times as adjustments are made. You don't just beat them in and out with a drift. I'll post pictures later of some of the Miller Tools. As far as measuring equipment, a dial indicator that measures in 0.001" increments with a clamp-on or magnetic base is a must. There are a few different styles but most of them can be mounted to measure what we need here with a little inginuity. A dial caliper really helps quickly sort shims and can be used to get a close estimate of pinion depth with the "plate" method. Sometimes a larger no-bounce mallet is needed, or even rawhide, but the rawhide mallet can shed chips of leather (less harmful than brass or steel, but still, any contaminant is bad). A 1/2" drive torque wrench as well as a small torque wrench that cna measure 0-50 inch pounds are required. A case spreader (not hard to make) is very helpful, but not rquired, but it does save some risk of carrier bearing damage while maitaining case preload. Medium (15-24") prybars to lever the case out (espcially needed when no case spreader is used). Gear pattern paste and a small acid brush. A small oilpumper with gear oil in it can be very helpful. Clean paper towels (rags shed too much lint), nitrile gloves (a recent luxury that I now consider essential!), a means of cleaning greasy diffentials, common hand tools...combine to get a good start!
-Jeff

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:28 pm

JAB wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:01 pm
Ray, I think it would nearly impossible to list all the tools that are used. In fact, which tools are used can vary depending on any issues that come up, because....Bubba. A good understanding of mechanics and bearings and good clean shop practices is a must, especially for jeeps as they seem to get the most abuse. The factory CJ and Jeep Utility Vehicle manuals from the '50s and '60s are really good sources for technique and specs. Forget the WWII jeep manuals for this job. To get started at the most simple basic level, high quality bearing pullers and accessories are a must. I bought the factory tools (Miller Tool) that were available to Jeep dealers in the '50s through the '60s (covering models 23, 25, 44, and possibly 41) and that set came with so many special bearing pullers and installers (that used a simple hardened threaded rod to pull bearings in or out) that I was able to copy their idea for the larger model 60 size and made then in a lathe at work. According to my machine repair instructors and various bearing seminars I attended through work, premature bearing failue is nearly always due to improper handling and installation (damaging them through poor installation methods, or letting contaminants enter). Improper lubrication, including water or other contaminants entering after installation, and abuse, are a distant 2nd and 3rd on the list, so having proper bearing installation and removal tools and proper shop practices are a must because most of the bearings are installed and removed, and re-installed, several times as adjustments are made. You don't just beat them in and out with a drift. I'll post pictures later of some of the Miller Tools. As far as measuring equipment, a dial indicator that measures in 0.001" increments with a clamp-on or magnetic base is a must. There are a few different styles but most of them can be mounted to measure what we need here with a little inginuity. A dial caliper really helps quickly sort shims and can be used to get a close estimate of pinion depth with the "plate" method. Sometimes a larger no-bounce mallet is needed, or even rawhide, but the rawhide mallet can shed chips of leather (less harmful than brass or steel, but still, any contaminant is bad). A 1/2" drive torque wrench as well as a small torque wrench that cna measure 0-50 inch pounds are required. A case spreader (not hard to make) is very helpful, but not rquired, but it does save some risk of carrier bearing damage while maitaining case preload. Medium (15-24") prybars to lever the case out (espcially needed when no case spreader is used). Gear pattern paste and a small acid brush. A small oilpumper with gear oil in it can be very helpful. Clean paper towels (rags shed too much lint), nitrile gloves (a recent luxury that I now consider essential!), a means of cleaning greasy diffentials, common hand tools...combine to get a good start!

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for the list, I have plenty of normal tools, as well as digital caliper.
Also Adam's set up bearings on loan !

I will get :

1. Dial indicator- inch pattern - On the way-just bought it. (Digital unit, with inch and metric)
2. Bearing separator
3. No bounce mallet
4.Gear pattern paste and brush
5.Depth indicator gauge - On the way- just bought it
6.Inch pound torque wrench - On the way- just bought it.
7. Case of blue paper towels :D
8. Hand Cleaner
9. Whatever else I can think of :D


Best Regards,
Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:02 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by JAB » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:54 pm

The tail of the caliper is adequet for a depth gauge for our purposes. Starting "close enough" is often a good starting point as the actusl pattern over rules any measurement. But.....With new Spicer brand gear sets I like to start at the stated pinion depth (deviation from zero is inscribed on the head) because it's been my experience that if the pinion is set to the inscribed depth and the backlash is in mid-tolorance the pattern will be good. The same cannot be said (in my experience) for any other brand, or used gear sets.

The no-bounce hammer needs to be a heavy one.
-Jeff

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:31 pm

JAB wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:54 pm
The tail of the caliper is adequate for a depth gauge for our purposes. Starting "close enough" is often a good starting point as the actual pattern over rules any measurement. But.....With new Spicer brand gear sets I like to start at the stated pinion depth (deviation from zero is inscribed on the head) because it's been my experience that if the pinion is set to the inscribed depth and the backlash is in mid-tolerance the pattern will be good. The same cannot be said (in my experience) for any other brand, or used gear sets.

The no-bounce hammer needs to be a heavy one.
Hello Jeff,

I will keep ordering new instruments and tools !
Heavy hammer, 10-4 .

For the MB, the new ring, pinion, and carrier are NOS Ford parts .

I will be getting to it soon, once the depth setting plate arrives, and the dial indicator arrives , and the inch pound T- wrench arrives to determine the rotational torque.


I will use the dial indicator first on the GPW engine, to determine what the end play is, since the feeler gauge is giving me
2 separate readings based on either the upper bearing, or the lower bearing.
.004 for the upper, and .006 for the lower.
Is that normal, or is it only checked on the upper bearing gap between the thrust washer and bearing as depicted in the less than helpful manuals ?

If the dial indicator is set up , where does the tip get placed , on the edge of the crank nut after it is tightened down ?

I will post some pictures of what I did today on the end play investigation.


Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by JAB » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:41 pm

Here's the MIller Tools differential kit that Jeep dealers used in the '50s and '60s to set up differentials. As you can see I've added many more bearing install/remove "pucks" for other differentials, that I made on a lathe.
IMG_0548.jpg
This (don't laugh! It works better than the factory tool!) is how I remove and install the inner seals. The PVC pipe is screwed on to an adapter after the pipe is place in the axle tube, then gently whacked with the no-bounce hammer. To remove the seals I just don't screw on the PVC part.
IMG_0544.jpg
Here's another picture showing different detail. It's too long because it's the only piece of 1/2" pipe I had that was already threaded on both ends. I also use it on the longer wagon and truck front differentials, so it's not really too long, but the angle of the picture is exagerating the length.
IMG_0545.jpg
The short bolt with the washers stacked on (the bottom part is a nut, turned round on a lathe to fit in the carrier where the axle would go) is a "stop" for the carrier bearing puller to push against. Nothing too fancy, just cheap and effective. Some carrier bearings are so tight that in the absence of set-up bearings the splitter is required as a jaw-type puller would fail at the jaw tips.
IMG_0546.jpg
The next three pictures are of the special hardened threaded rod from the kit along with the various adapters from the kit being used to install or remove bearings from the differetnial housing. These are the parts I copied in larger sizes for model 60 axles as the kit does not address that model.

This is installing the inner pinion bearing.
IMG_0549.jpg
IMG_0551.jpg
This is removing the inner pinion bearing to change the shim stack.
IMG_0552.jpg
This is the pinion depth measuring plate installed, finger tight only, and two methods of reaching down to measure the pinion depth.
IMG_0553.jpg
This is the pinion depth measuring plate I made, after I modified it to fit models 23-2, 25, 44, and probably 41 and 30 as well.
IMG_0554.jpg
A creative way to press the pinion bearing off if you don't have a press. I have pipes I've machined from regular plumbing pipe, or tubes that just happen to fit, that I use to press bearing on. They need to be kept clean to protect the bearings.
IMG_0555.jpg
-Jeff

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Re: 1943 Ford GPW Build from Rescued 1943 Parts

Post by 70th Division » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:55 pm

JAB wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:41 pm
Here's the MIller Tools differential kit that Jeep dealers used in the '50s and '60s to set up differentials. As you can see I've added many more bearing install/remove "pucks" for other differentials, that I made on a lathe.
IMG_0548.jpg

This (don't laugh! It works better than the factory tool!) is how I remove and install the inner seals. The PVC pipe is screwed on to an adapter after the pipe is place in the axle tube, then gently whacked with the no-bounce hammer. To remove the seals I just don't screw on the PVC part.
IMG_0545.jpg

Here's another picture showing different detail. It's too long because it's the only piece of 1/2" pipe I had that was already threaded on both ends. I also use it on the longer wagon and truck front differentials, so it's not really too long, but the angle of the picture is exagerating the length.
IMG_0544.jpg

The short bolt with the washers stacked on (the bottom part is a nut, turned round on a lathe to fit in the carrier where the axle would go) is a "stop" for the carrier bearing puller to push against. Nothing too fancy, just cheap and effective. Some carrier bearings are so tight that in the absence of set-up bearings the splitter is required as a jaw-type puller would fail at the jaw tips.
IMG_0546.jpg

The next three pictures are of the special hardened threaded rod from the kit along with the various adapters from the kit being used to install or remove bearings from the differetnial housing. These are the parts I copied in larger sizes for model 60 axles as the kit does not address that model.

This is installing the inner pinion bearing.
IMG_0549.jpg

IMG_0551.jpg
This is removing the inner pinion bearing to change the shim stack.
IMG_0552.jpg
This is the pinion depth measuring plate installed, finger tight only, and two methods of reaching down to measure the pinion depth.
IMG_0553.jpg
This is the pinion depth measuring plate I made, after I modified it to fit models 23-2, 25, 44, and probably 41 and 30 as well.
IMG_0554.jpg
A creative way to press the pinion bearing off if you don't have a press. I have pipes I've machined from regular plumbing pipe, or tubes that just happen to fit, that I use to press bearing on. They need to be kept clean to protect the bearings.
IMG_0555.jpg

Hello Jeff,

Those are great pictures showing the methods employed to get things done !!
Very interesting tools !

I will have to next get a bearing separator, I imagine the new carrier once cleaned up, will just needs shims and a new bearing pressed on,
after things get set with the set up bearings.


Keep up your good work !

Best Regards,
Ray


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