GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
I am following this, looks great to me. My assy is in pieces on the table since i took pics of it, May just follow what you have done to get mine done.
Adam
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello,
Today I decided to have a closer look at odometer rolls. Of course I know them from my work with the MB/GPW speedometers but I would like to report on something that might be of interest to somebody who is trying to build a GP cluster from different Ford Truck clusters.
We know that Ford Truck had three different cluster brands. Each of them having a 60 MPH and a 100 MPH version.
Waltham, Stewart Warner and King Seeley.
In the following picture one sees the odometer rolls of the three brands:
Top is King Seeley with a width of 35,7 mm diameter 18,8 mm
Middle is Waltham with a width of 31,3 mm diameter 18,9 mm
Bottom is Stewart Warner with a width of 30,2 and diameter 22,1 mm
This means that the opening in the face plate is different and a King Seeley face plate can not be used for building a Waltham.
A Stewart Warner face plate could be used (as it is only 1 mm difference) but in that case the holes for the screws connecting the face plate to the jewel need to be moved.
In the next picture one can see a (late) King Seeley face plate (without holes) and a Stewart Warner one. Both are 60 MPH versions (NOT correct for a GP cluster).
(the holes for a Waltham would be inside the 0 and 60/100 MPH ticks)
I know it is a detail, but if you plan on building your own GP speedometer cluster maybe this can guide you in buying the correct components.
Greetings
Hans
Today I decided to have a closer look at odometer rolls. Of course I know them from my work with the MB/GPW speedometers but I would like to report on something that might be of interest to somebody who is trying to build a GP cluster from different Ford Truck clusters.
We know that Ford Truck had three different cluster brands. Each of them having a 60 MPH and a 100 MPH version.
Waltham, Stewart Warner and King Seeley.
In the following picture one sees the odometer rolls of the three brands:
Top is King Seeley with a width of 35,7 mm diameter 18,8 mm
Middle is Waltham with a width of 31,3 mm diameter 18,9 mm
Bottom is Stewart Warner with a width of 30,2 and diameter 22,1 mm
This means that the opening in the face plate is different and a King Seeley face plate can not be used for building a Waltham.
A Stewart Warner face plate could be used (as it is only 1 mm difference) but in that case the holes for the screws connecting the face plate to the jewel need to be moved.
In the next picture one can see a (late) King Seeley face plate (without holes) and a Stewart Warner one. Both are 60 MPH versions (NOT correct for a GP cluster).
(the holes for a Waltham would be inside the 0 and 60/100 MPH ticks)
I know it is a detail, but if you plan on building your own GP speedometer cluster maybe this can guide you in buying the correct components.
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello
Today I did assemble a Stewart Warner odometer.
(of course for Waltham and King Seeley it is the same process).
I will describe the whole process of taking the odometer apart, removing the old numbers, priming the rolls, creating the decal number rolls, applying the decals and assembly in the thread on GPW/MB speedometer restoration when I find some time but I already wanted to share the result in this post.
This is a picture of the speedometer parts (magnet shaft is broken). The odometer was also in bad shape.
This is the end result of the odometer mounted in the frame (I decided to go for white but any yellowish or other color is possible):
And this picture shows a detail of the rolls where the transition of the number strips between the numbers '2' and '3' is hard too see:
I am pretty happy with the result.
On top of that the odometer works
Greetings
Hans
Today I did assemble a Stewart Warner odometer.
(of course for Waltham and King Seeley it is the same process).
I will describe the whole process of taking the odometer apart, removing the old numbers, priming the rolls, creating the decal number rolls, applying the decals and assembly in the thread on GPW/MB speedometer restoration when I find some time but I already wanted to share the result in this post.
This is a picture of the speedometer parts (magnet shaft is broken). The odometer was also in bad shape.
This is the end result of the odometer mounted in the frame (I decided to go for white but any yellowish or other color is possible):
And this picture shows a detail of the rolls where the transition of the number strips between the numbers '2' and '3' is hard too see:
I am pretty happy with the result.
On top of that the odometer works
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Are you on FB? few posts down, what do you think about this one.
ADam
https://www.facebook.com/groups/175681642556439
ADam
https://www.facebook.com/groups/175681642556439
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Not much.
I am starting.
I did apply for being member of the group you referred to.
At this moment I am waiting to get approved so I can not see what you refer to
There is also a group "GP 1941" that I follow.
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello Adam,
In the meantime I have been accepted by the owners of the facebook group.
I also think I have found the post you refer to. It is about a restored GP cluster isn't it?
Looks very nice. Very well done.
Unfortunately it is not perfect. The restorer used a Stewart Warner speedometer cluster and he made it look like a Waltham speedometer cluster.
But, as I said it is extremely well done.
Probably the Stewart Warner cluster is what was given to him and he used the Waltham decal he had to make it look like he real thing.
From the back it is obvious that it is Stewart Warner and not Waltham.
From the front, the give aways are the place of the screws connecting the dial plate to the frame and the odometer roll placement, size and character type (see previous post where I describe the restoration of a Stewart Warner odometer).
The following picture shows what a for GP correct Waltham faceplate with correct Waltham odometer characters looks like (I will report on the restoration when it is finished)
(You will have to compare this with the pictures of the facebook post to see the differences. I am probably not allowed to take over the pictures and post them here...)
I like his choice of colours though, even though I think the original background colour was more black. I am also not sure that the casing with the brackets was originally OD. The bezel yes, but the casing? To be seen...
Thank you for referring me to the post and the group.
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Can this be made into a gp cluster or parts used to fix a real gp unit?
ADam
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello Adam,
Very very interesting!
Let me explain why but bear with me. It is quite complex.
In your picture we see a 60 MPH speedometer based cluster.
This is not what a standard GP was equipped with as you will know from the previous posts. From what I found on the G503 forum there were only two early prototype GP's with a 60 mph speedometer.
After those two prototypes, all other GP's seem to have left he factory with 100 mph Waltham speedometer based clusters. Up to now I did not find proof that a GP was from factory equipped with a Stewart Warner speedometer (too deep?) or a King Seeley.
Back to the 60 mph based speedometers and more specifically the two early ones:
I have never seen a picture of them so I always wondered whether they were Waltham, Stewart Warner or King Seeley.
Stewart Warner speedometers exist in 60 mph versions but are told to be too deep. So probably not.
King Seeley speedometers also exist in 60 mph version and are less deep so they could have been used but up to now I have not gotten confirmation that any King Seeley was used in a GP. So maybe not.
This leaves me to believe that the 60 mph speedometers installed in the two prototypes are Waltham (it would be great if somebody had a picture of these early prototypes).
You are still with me?
Why is your picture cluster interesting?
On the picture of your post I think you have a 60 mph Waltham speedometer. I would be more certain if you show a picture of the back of the cluster.
But, the placement of the screws is 'Waltham like'.
I do not see the Waltham logo on the face so that makes me a little uncertain but maybe the 60 mph faceplates did not have the logo. ???
Anyway, to answer the question in your post:
If the speedometer is indeed Waltham, it is only a matter of changing the hairspring and the faceplate (with 100 mph Waltham decal) and the cluster can be turned in a perfectly exact GP cluster (Note however that tabs have to be welded to the cluster body so that the cluster can be mounted in a GP).
Greetings
Hans
Very very interesting!
Let me explain why but bear with me. It is quite complex.
In your picture we see a 60 MPH speedometer based cluster.
This is not what a standard GP was equipped with as you will know from the previous posts. From what I found on the G503 forum there were only two early prototype GP's with a 60 mph speedometer.
After those two prototypes, all other GP's seem to have left he factory with 100 mph Waltham speedometer based clusters. Up to now I did not find proof that a GP was from factory equipped with a Stewart Warner speedometer (too deep?) or a King Seeley.
Back to the 60 mph based speedometers and more specifically the two early ones:
I have never seen a picture of them so I always wondered whether they were Waltham, Stewart Warner or King Seeley.
Stewart Warner speedometers exist in 60 mph versions but are told to be too deep. So probably not.
King Seeley speedometers also exist in 60 mph version and are less deep so they could have been used but up to now I have not gotten confirmation that any King Seeley was used in a GP. So maybe not.
This leaves me to believe that the 60 mph speedometers installed in the two prototypes are Waltham (it would be great if somebody had a picture of these early prototypes).
You are still with me?
Why is your picture cluster interesting?
On the picture of your post I think you have a 60 mph Waltham speedometer. I would be more certain if you show a picture of the back of the cluster.
But, the placement of the screws is 'Waltham like'.
I do not see the Waltham logo on the face so that makes me a little uncertain but maybe the 60 mph faceplates did not have the logo. ???
Anyway, to answer the question in your post:
If the speedometer is indeed Waltham, it is only a matter of changing the hairspring and the faceplate (with 100 mph Waltham decal) and the cluster can be turned in a perfectly exact GP cluster (Note however that tabs have to be welded to the cluster body so that the cluster can be mounted in a GP).
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
in the group of 3 it is the bottom one, other two are 100mph units, middle one has gp mounts on it. For some reason it looks to have a shorter cable connection barrel on it. or maybe just the photo.
This came with a gp i just bought, in a box of parts, if it can be converted i would sell it as that after i make sure one of the top two work.
Adam
This came with a gp i just bought, in a box of parts, if it can be converted i would sell it as that after i make sure one of the top two work.
Adam
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello Adam,
So yes, as I suspected, a Waltham. Just like the other two.
Nice.
With respect to the middle one, the one with the tabs, I have some questions.
Which gauges does it have? Does the type number the gauges have on the bottom end with C or with N.
Also, are you able to find back the original colour of he bezel (OD I presume) and, more interesting, the casing? Normally this one is bare metal on the outside and cream white on the inside.
Can you have a look and send me the picture or pictures (maybe through PM to not overload this thread).
Greetings
Hans
So yes, as I suspected, a Waltham. Just like the other two.
Nice.
With respect to the middle one, the one with the tabs, I have some questions.
Which gauges does it have? Does the type number the gauges have on the bottom end with C or with N.
Also, are you able to find back the original colour of he bezel (OD I presume) and, more interesting, the casing? Normally this one is bare metal on the outside and cream white on the inside.
Can you have a look and send me the picture or pictures (maybe through PM to not overload this thread).
Greetings
Hans
Living in Belgium
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MB 379881
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello,
A couple of posts ago I explained that it was not possible to mix Stewart Warner, King Seeley and Waltham speedometer parts when restoring a GP cluster. The internals and dial plates are different.
I explained that the size of the odometer rolls is different.
In he following one can see that also the dial plates are different:
The Stewart Warner and the Waltham have screws that are used to connect the dial to the frame. The King Seeley's that I have seen up to now have four tabs on the side that hold the dial in place (not shown on the picture).
For what it is worth...
Greetings
Hans
A couple of posts ago I explained that it was not possible to mix Stewart Warner, King Seeley and Waltham speedometer parts when restoring a GP cluster. The internals and dial plates are different.
I explained that the size of the odometer rolls is different.
In he following one can see that also the dial plates are different:
The Stewart Warner and the Waltham have screws that are used to connect the dial to the frame. The King Seeley's that I have seen up to now have four tabs on the side that hold the dial in place (not shown on the picture).
For what it is worth...
Greetings
Hans
Living in Belgium
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
So i have been following all the post, I have a pretty good gauge assemble. not completely correct but in good shape. Are the gauge decals available for purchase, as much as i read i could not find a good answer or source for purchase. Mine are all in great funtioning state but decal is wrong. i have the 0-100 Waltham speedo with the curly letters as describe earlier. second question that i cannot find an answer to is the color of inner panel? Gold, Bronze, combo? would really like more info.
Thanks
Thanks
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello,
I am very sorry for this late reaction.
For whatever reason I was not notified of the post you made.
The good thing about your cluster is that it is Waltham which is correct and it is 100 mph. You just need the correct face plate decal.
As you know from the previous you also need decal for the red stripes.
Do you want to do everything yourselves? Can you work with decals?
Hope this helps
Greetings
Hans
I am very sorry for this late reaction.
For whatever reason I was not notified of the post you made.
Yes they are. Send me a PM and we will go from there.rmayer8816 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:58 pmAre the gauge decals available for purchase, as much as i read i could not find a good answer or source for purchase.
The curly letters are 1940 and used in standard Ford Truck. They were not used after 1940. And not used in the GP.rmayer8816 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:58 pmi have the 0-100 Waltham speedo with the curly letters as describe earlier.
The good thing about your cluster is that it is Waltham which is correct and it is 100 mph. You just need the correct face plate decal.
It is gold. I did buy about five different gold spray cans and compared them to an original in good condition. I have a perfect match now.rmayer8816 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:58 pmsecond question that i cannot find an answer to is the color of inner panel? Gold, Bronze, combo? would really like more info.
As you know from the previous you also need decal for the red stripes.
Do you want to do everything yourselves? Can you work with decals?
Hope this helps
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello,
It has been a while since I posted. I have not been inactive however.
Maybe it is time for an update.
Going through the thread I notice that some edits would be helpful, but unfortunately not possible.
The two first GP prototypes had a Waltham based 60 mph speedometer.
This is a picture of the cluster of GP 1 (which can be visited in the US Veterans Memorial museum in Huntsville, Alabama):
I have not seen any proof that after that production GP's were NOT equipped with a 100 mph Waltham based cluster as manufactured in 1941.
Pictures in the first post above.
(note however that the picture of the 'nicely' restored cluster shows a Frankenstein restoration in that a Waltham faceplate decal is used on top of a Stewart Warner speedometer. jakkes )
This would mean that all other clusters (including the 100 mph Waltham 1940 based ones) are not correct for GP.
This is strong statement as I believe that therefor many existing GP's do not have the correct cluster.
Stewart Warner is not correct and too deep for proper installation.
King Seeley, even though less deep than Waltham, is not correct as I believe they came on the market much after 1941.
The gauges used in the GP are all King Seeley and they have the 1941 style (Not the 1940 one with the curly characters). All GP clusters have an AMP gauge and no BATT gauge (which is also a 1940 thing). The OIL gauge has 0-20-50 indication (0-30-80 being 1942 and later).
The only differentiating thing between a Ford Truck 1941 Waltham 100 mph cluster and a GP cluster is the three mounting brackets that are welded on the casing. Not the internals.
When thinking about restoration and (re)build (which is the title of this thread), one could take the correct 1941 Ford Truck cluster and add the three brackets to the casing to produce a correct GP cluster.
I gave it try:
I was not able to do this without having the real GP casing as guide. Even having the dimensions of the brackets or the brackets themselves, I did find it impossible to put them on the right spot.
I therefor used an original casing of a GP cluster that I am restoring (Thank you Adam) and made what I call 'a rig' in which I would be able to mount the cluster. It does not look nice but it works:
This 'rig' can than be used to mount a standard casing, add the brackets on the correct spot and use it for welding the brackets. Best to use spot welding (not easy ).
Maybe important to note (and do not ask me how I know this) is, that if one makes the brackets a little longer than needed and if one waits with making the mounting holes until after the welding, the rig will help to place the holes perfect for mounting (whatever small distortions the welding process generated). The extra can be cut off.
This is a picture of the result after priming:
To be continued (and yes, I would love to have somebody proof that my statements above are not correct).
Greetings
Hans
It has been a while since I posted. I have not been inactive however.
Maybe it is time for an update.
Going through the thread I notice that some edits would be helpful, but unfortunately not possible.
The two first GP prototypes had a Waltham based 60 mph speedometer.
This is a picture of the cluster of GP 1 (which can be visited in the US Veterans Memorial museum in Huntsville, Alabama):
I have not seen any proof that after that production GP's were NOT equipped with a 100 mph Waltham based cluster as manufactured in 1941.
Pictures in the first post above.
(note however that the picture of the 'nicely' restored cluster shows a Frankenstein restoration in that a Waltham faceplate decal is used on top of a Stewart Warner speedometer. jakkes )
This would mean that all other clusters (including the 100 mph Waltham 1940 based ones) are not correct for GP.
This is strong statement as I believe that therefor many existing GP's do not have the correct cluster.
Stewart Warner is not correct and too deep for proper installation.
King Seeley, even though less deep than Waltham, is not correct as I believe they came on the market much after 1941.
The gauges used in the GP are all King Seeley and they have the 1941 style (Not the 1940 one with the curly characters). All GP clusters have an AMP gauge and no BATT gauge (which is also a 1940 thing). The OIL gauge has 0-20-50 indication (0-30-80 being 1942 and later).
The only differentiating thing between a Ford Truck 1941 Waltham 100 mph cluster and a GP cluster is the three mounting brackets that are welded on the casing. Not the internals.
When thinking about restoration and (re)build (which is the title of this thread), one could take the correct 1941 Ford Truck cluster and add the three brackets to the casing to produce a correct GP cluster.
I gave it try:
I was not able to do this without having the real GP casing as guide. Even having the dimensions of the brackets or the brackets themselves, I did find it impossible to put them on the right spot.
I therefor used an original casing of a GP cluster that I am restoring (Thank you Adam) and made what I call 'a rig' in which I would be able to mount the cluster. It does not look nice but it works:
This 'rig' can than be used to mount a standard casing, add the brackets on the correct spot and use it for welding the brackets. Best to use spot welding (not easy ).
Maybe important to note (and do not ask me how I know this) is, that if one makes the brackets a little longer than needed and if one waits with making the mounting holes until after the welding, the rig will help to place the holes perfect for mounting (whatever small distortions the welding process generated). The extra can be cut off.
This is a picture of the result after priming:
To be continued (and yes, I would love to have somebody proof that my statements above are not correct).
Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build
Hello
Because I want make this thread as complete as possible I do add some information I gathered.
Thanks to Corey Helweg, I did get copies of related parts the GP parts list.
This is what I find wrt to the cluster factory installed in a GP:
The cluster is GP 9271
The speedometer is 11C 17255-A.
The AMP gauge 11C 10883-A.
The OIL gauge 11C 9273-A.
The TEMP gauge 11C 10883-A
The FUEL gauge 11C 9280-A.
11C refers to the Ford 1/2 ton Truck made in 1941, so that confirms where the GP got it's cluster from.
Waltham did make the 11C 17255-A
But where they the only one?
And model 23-11C-A with Waltham no. 6330 is that the 100 mph?
The gauges are King Seeley. NOS can be bought with above mentioned type numbers. Up to now I did not find a NOS with the 'C'. They all have the 'N', so I tend to believe 'N' were later or replacement parts.
Does anybody have access to the service manual in the picture? (I am prepared to pay for a copy. Quickly made smartphone pictures in a dropbox folder or anything will do).
Thanks
Hans
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