GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

1940 - 1941 BRC, MA, GP, Preproduction Prototypes. Knowledge Base NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by Adam » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:12 am

Heres a swcond one of mine, this was rigged to stay in the dash, dont know weather to hide it was not correct or just to store it, has wrong benzel on her, who knows about the internals,, does not look like the inner front cover was ever off. were not the GP's the only ford vehicles with 0 to 100 speedos, or maybe the gauge covers are older repops? I have never taken one of these apart, is the gauge printing silkscreened or something on a piece of metal?

Adam
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:30 am

Thank you Adam.

Thank you for the pictures. This helps. Only I do not see the three brackets that are needed to hold the cluster in the GP dash. Maybe it not completely correct? Or have the brackets been removed?

It would confirm that 'C' gauges are correct for Ford GP.

It also confirms that the red section on the characters is quite thick.
They were indeed silk printed or whatever and the red section is not always completely in the middle as can be seen in your pictures. I think the objective however is to have it in the middle so in my Coreldraw graphics I will put it there.
I could fake misalignment but ...
The thickness of the red section is different whether you print on decal or on vinyl sticker so I requires some trial and error to get it correct.

The 0-100 speedometer was also used on Ford Trucks and other cars of the Ford family.

Thanks for keeping this threat alive.

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Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by slatgrille » Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:23 pm

My GP's cluster is also 0-100, BUT, the font style seems Art Deco style (i.e. curvy/cursive). Anyone know what vehicle may have used that? It does have the bezel with the brackets. If wrong, I better get some of those decals advertised a few years ago...IF still available!

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:53 pm

slatgrille wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:23 pm
My GP's cluster is also 0-100, BUT, the font style seems Art Deco style (i.e. curvy/cursive).
Hello Slatgrille,

This is probably the face plate you are talking about:

Image

Does yours have WALTHAM on it? That would be good because then your speedo has the correct depth.
What about the gauges? Do they have the curly characters also?

The curly characters were used in passenger cars Ford and Mercury.

I have the correct face plate decals. I also have the faceplate on vinyl sticker if you think that that is easier to apply.
I do also have the gauges.

I can sell you a set for 50 USD. That is about what I pay for one month Coreldraw license. Because you would be my first customer, I will send you both decal and vinyl :-)

Greetings
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by slatgrille » Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:26 am

Thanks Hans. Yes, that is the exact style! I will check it out today and get back to you.

Craig

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by slatgrille » Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:27 pm

Hans,
My speedo is a Stewart Warner...has the S-W stamped on the back of the housing and I can see Stewart embossed on one of the mechanisms inside. The other gauges are 'C' denoted also.

Craig

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:57 pm

slatgrille wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:27 pm

My speedo is a Stewart Warner...has the S-W stamped on the back of the housing and I can see Stewart embossed on one of the mechanisms inside.
Hello Craig,

Does the SW Speedometer cluster fit behind the dash?

This is what a SW 100MPH cluster (579 Y) looks like from the back:

Image

This one has been manufactured in "J4". This is April 1941. "K" would be 1942 and "H" is 1940. They did not use the "I".

With respect to the gauges, I believe C gauges are OK. The TEMP gauge should have "N" in the middle and not 'NORMAL" with a green underscore.

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by M1045 » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:58 pm

Hi Hans,
I searched thought by NOS gauges. I found one C gauge see below for the size red highlights.
IMG_2432.JPG
IMG_2433.JPG
I had a KS in 9510
IMG_2431.JPG
IMG_2430.JPG
IMG_2424.JPG
IMG_2423.JPG
And a waltham in 9203
IMG_2429.JPG
IMG_2428.JPG
IMG_2420.JPG
IMG_2418.JPG
Dj

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:15 am

Hello DJ

Thank you very much for this helpful and revealing information.

It seems that 100 MPH King Seeley speedometers have indeed been used in the Ford GP cluster. Top!

In your pictures I can see that a short frame King Seeley is used. The speedometer cable connection section is 2 cm (the part sticking out the cover). The cover 4 cm (?) giving us a total space of 6 cm behind the cluster.
The Waltham has a 3 cm cable connection section but a lower depth body which looks to be about 3 cm giving us the same total of 6 cm.
(Stewart Warners are more than 1 cm deeper and therefor difficult to use in a GP?)

There are also long frames but I think they came later in the production (and not used in the GP?).

In the following picture you can see what I mean:

Image

On the left one can see the (what I believe to be) early King Seeley frames. In the front left what is used in your GP and 1941 Ford Trucks. In the back same difference between Ford GPW and MB speedometer frames early and late (with different speedometer cable connection).

Thank you also for the picture of the NOS gauge. That helps to make my decals more exact.

Still some question marks in the above though ...

Greetings
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by M1045 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:02 am

Hans, if you need a better resolution pic, let me know. I was limited by 503 as to the size of the file.
Good info.
Dj

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:25 am

Hello

Just for your information, today I did apply a Waltham 100 MPH decal on the faceplate with the strange characters that I showed in my post of July 31st.

This is the result (I did not make the opening yet for the odometer):

Image

Image

I am quite happy with the result.

Also, I did acquire a 1946 King Seeley cluster:

Image

Image

The good thing about it (when you want to use it as a base to build a GP cluster) is that it has a depth comparable to the Waltham and as such will allow for installation in the GP dash (as opposed to the Stewart Warner based clusters that are too deep).
On top of it, King Seeley was used in the GP so this part of the equation is also OK.
I will have to adapt the hairspring or reduce the magnet strength to turn it into a 100 MPH speedometer though but that is not going to be difficult.

More on this later.

Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:44 am

M1045 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:58 pm

I had a KS in 9510

IMG_2431.JPG

IMG_2430.JPG

IMG_2424.JPG

IMG_2423.JPG
Hello Dj,

Sorry for the late reaction.
I was away from my Ford cluster stuff when you did write the quoted post.

Now I am back with the clusters and I can compare what I have with your pictures. Unfortunately the cluster that you claim to be KS is a Stewart Warner.
The following pictures show a SW that I have and as you can see the backplate and frame cover (deep) is the same as what you have in your GP 9510.

Yours:

Image

SW:

Image

This is what King Seeley looks like:

Image

This does not prove that your cluster is not original to your GP. It could be that SW was used in GP clusters. But is it not too deep for the cable to be connected without sharp bend?

Unfortunately this means that the use of KS in Ford GP is not yet proven.
A KS could fit in the GP however as I did state in the previous post.

Ford clusters use four different speedometers. The Waltham (which was for sure used in the GP), the Stewart Warner and two King Seeley's (one with short frame and one with large frame).

I did measure the space needed behind the dashboard:

Waltham:

Image

Image

Stewart Warner:

Image

Image

King Seeley (long frame):

Image

Image

All together (I did include what a short frame King Seeley would have as depth):

Image

So, I am not sure why I do all of this and why I go in so much detail but maybe somebody is interested in it. I have the clusters and I have the time ...

I really would appreciate to have some feedback and an answer to the question:

Was King Seeley used in Ford GP cluster?

Finally, as you know all my clusters are Ford Truck clusters, so none have the brackets that are used in the GP.
I would like to have some details about what these brackets look like in detail. Pictures and dimensions would help.

Greetings
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by slatgrille » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:45 am

Although the cluster of my 'rebuilt' speedo unit is a Stewart-Warner, the bezel doesn't have the 3 brackets for the GP. The original unit, I believe, for my GP has the brackets on the bezel, but is a Waltham. It is labelled in raised letters 'Waltham Watch Co.' on the back of the speedo casing. Interestingly, the face (although quite rusty and faded), has that 'art deco' style font also.

Craig

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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:26 am

slatgrille wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:45 am
Although the cluster of my 'rebuilt' speedo unit is a Stewart-Warner, the bezel doesn't have the 3 brackets for the GP.
Hello Craig,

Thanks a lot for your reaction.

The speedometer is Stewart Warner and the casing/bezel does not have the three brackets. That is normal for a Stewart Warner cluster as it was not made for the GP. It is too deep. The Ford Truck bezels do not have brackets.
Your Stewart Warner cluster is not original.
slatgrille wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:45 am
The original unit, I believe, for my GP has the brackets on the bezel, but is a Waltham.
For a GP it is correct hat there are three brackets and that the speedometer is Waltham. I guess it is 100 MPH?
The characters being art deco is strange but who am I to claim that it is not correct. Does it have Waltham written on the dial plate (above the pointer?). If not I think it might be a replacement dial...

Many unknowns though so I would appreciate more info from other GP owners.

Thanks
Hans
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Re: GP Speedometer Cluster restoration and (re)build

Post by htc » Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:47 am

Hello

Even though many questions are still unanswered (and not much is happening in this thread) I continue with my reporting on GP cluster restoration.

Today I am discussing the dash face plate itself.
Most of the time they are in a terrible condition and all colors have faded.

In that case I strip them from paint and rust with electrolysis, wire wheel and sanding paper.
I paint them white with a white primer and after that gold with a matte gold spray can (It took me a while to find the correct 'gold').

This picture shows four different stages described above:

Image

I give the face plate a coat of varnish to make it ready for the next step.

Next are the red stripes.

This has been discussed before of the G and some have used red tape with the correct width and color to apply the stripes. I could not find the tape neither was I confident to be able to stick the stripes at the correct distances and perfectly horizontal.

So I decided to use decals for the stripes.
First I took closeup pictures of the dash plate and after that I use Coreldraw to make the perfect graphic file.

I will be using the file to print a copy of the face plate with guide lines that will help me to apply the decals (picture of guide paper with original face plate):

Image

I am also using the file to create the decals themselves.
I am using clear decal paper so that I can combine three red stripes. (I tried using white decal paper but that is very cumbersome and only interesting if one needs white in the decal).

Image

(note that the background of the decal paper is white but the decal itself is transparent between and around the red lines).

These are the decal stripes before applying them to the face plate.

Image

Next is a picture of the result with as reference an original face plate that is in fairly good condition:

Image

Finally a detail of the faceplate with the decal applied:

Image

I am pretty happy with the result.
I will give the plate a final coat of varnish.

Hope this will help somebody.

Greetings
Hans
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