MA hood bumpers

1940 - 1941 BRC, MA, GP, Preproduction Prototypes. Knowledge Base NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.
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George Hollins
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MA hood bumpers

Post by George Hollins » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:37 am

Looking at original 1940s photos of the MA, the early registration have 1 hood bumper, the late registration have 3 hood bumpers for the windshield.

MA photo W-2019402 has 1 hood bumper (approx. 470th built).
MA photo W-2019649 has 1 hood bumper (approx. 717th built).
MA photo W-2020321 has 3 hood bumpers (approx. 1389th built).
MA photo W-2020375 has 3 hood bumpers (approx. 1443th built).

Does anyone have documents to confirm if the change to 3 hood bumpers was made at the Willys factory as a running change during production? Or, did Willys build all 1,500 MA with 1 hood bumper and issue a Technical Bulletin to add the additional 2 hood bumpers by the Army in the field? Or a combination of running production change and field Technical Bulletin?

George
Attachments
1941 Willys photo factory MA and Americar reduce.jpg
1941 Willys photo factory MA and Americar reduce.jpg (211.19 KiB) Viewed 615 times
Willys MA with 1 hood bumper - reduce.jpg
Willys MA with 1 hood bumper - reduce.jpg (243.51 KiB) Viewed 615 times
Willys MA with 3 hood bumpers - reduce.jpg
Willys MA with 3 hood bumpers - reduce.jpg (210.43 KiB) Viewed 615 times

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Fred Coldwell
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by Fred Coldwell » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 am

Hi George:

I imagine your question might arise from the incomplete and cut-off supplemental pages in the old Portrayal Press photocopies of the MA Parts List TM-10-1102. MY old copy had supplemental pages in the back that were hand-numbered by Dennis from 83 to 100, and listed Engineering Changes and Additions that occurred after the original Parts List was printed effective June 2nd, 1941. as shown on the inside title page.

I have since acquired a copy of the original missing pages 83 and 84 that show on page 83 Group 2305 Cotter Pins and Group 2306 Tools, Starting Crank and Equipment, and on page 84 contains a Bearing Chart. But for this post, I will continue to use Dennis hand-numbered pages.

The single center windshield bumper on the hood is A-2532 in Group 1704 on page 73. It was attached with two 10-24 x 1" screws, nuts, washers and lock washers. From the Willys-Overland List of Parts Numerical 640,000 to 649,999 (LOPN), it was likely released for production on 3-3-41, well before MA production began. I say "likely" because the column in which some dates appear is titled "Supp.", which I think is short for supplemental, but I also think that column was used for other purposes, and the important date would be the date parts were released for production. A few entries for a very few parts (none pertinent to this thread) note the part was cancelled and never used in production, which strengthens the argument that listed dates are release for production dates.

Dennis' hand-numbered page 83 contains Engineering Changes and Additions to the MA Parts List effective June 25th, 1941. In Group 1704 is listed a new part, A-2677, a Hood Top Windshield Bumper Shim, 1 required. The 2 bumper attaching screws were increased in length by 1/8" to 1-1/8" long, which suggests the shim was around 1/8" thick. My copy of hand-numbered page 84 is totally blank.

Dennis' hand-numbered pages 85 to 94 contain 5 type written pages of TM-10-1102 Change No. 1 dated August 8, 1941. Dennis' odd numbered pages show the typewritten pages 1 to 5, while his even numbered pages are blank, which I think are just the blank back sides of the 5 typewritten pages.

Typewritten page 4 (91) at its very bottom only partially shows an entry for Group 1704 that states "Insert the following after Part No. A-2532" because the page photocopied was set too low in the photocopier and its bottom was cut off. I don't know what that entry was, but it might have been the single ~1/8" thick shim.

Typewritten page 5 (93) under Group 1704 states "Insert the following after Part No. A-2532:
A-2740 Hood Top Panel Windshield Bumper [Shim] Outer 2
A-2741 Hood Top Panel Windshield Bumper Shim Outer 2

The outer shim attaching screws are 10-24 x 3/4".

A-2740 is listed solely as an outer bumper in the LOPN , and I believe that is the correct description even though the word "shim" [which I put inside brackets above because I believe it is incorrect] appears in the A-2740 part description on typed page 5. The A-2740 outer bumper and its A-2742 shims [which are described as shims in the LOPN] were released for production on 7-18-41.

Most interesting is Part No. A-2743, Hood to Windshield Bumper Instln Dwg.", the installation drawing for the 2 outer hood bumpers that were released on 7-23-41. Again, these outer windshield bumpers are listed in Change No. 1 dated August 8, 1941, but they could have been installed on in the factory as soon as 7-18-41 if that was the date they were released for production. They also could have been installed at various times in the field on MA jeeps that were within these parts area of distribution.

MA Parts List Change No. 2 dated December 1, 1941 does not mention hood top windshield bumpers because they had already been made available earlier in Change No. 1.

I regard the A-2743 installation drawing as one which was distributed for field installation of the 2 outer bumpers without having a formal field kit for them named or assembled. The fact that the installation drawing appears in the MA Parts List tells me is was meant for distribution to MA users and was not merely an internal factory document, none of which are listed in parts lists.

George, I hope this information helps you and other MA owners. I don't have confirming answers nor a Technical Bulletin that might nail things down. And as with many things Willys, this proves once again that the more information one has, the more questions arise from it. Enjoy!

Edited for better clarity 1-18-19.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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George Hollins
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by George Hollins » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:35 pm

Fred:
Thank you for your very detailed information.

You have a document identifying a design release date of July 18, 1941 for the additional 2 outer hood bumpers for the MA. If possible, could you please post a copy of your document.

Based on your July 18, 1941 document, we can speculate that Willys shipped the first approx. 1,000 MA to the Army with 1 hood bumper, and the last approx. 500 shipped with 3 hood bumpers.

Here are several original MA serial number plates from the July 18, 1941 time period:
MA79306 DOD 7-18-41 (approx. registration W-2019837)
MA79442 DOD 7-22-41 (approx. registration W-2019973)
MA79594 DOD 7-24-41 (actual registration W-2020008).

Therefore, for a Factory Original Restoration, here is a possible guide:
1 hood bumper: s/n 78401 to 79442 (approx. 1000 vehicles) (approx. W-2018932 to W-2019973).
3 hood bumpers: s/n 79443 to 79900 (approx. 500 vehicles) (approx. W-2019974 to W-2020431).

Below is a photo taken in San Francisco, 8-14-41, with a group of MA that look new, with 3 hood bumpers, with registration numbers after 2020000. This would support the theory that Willys made the running production change to 3 hood bumpers, for the last few hundred vehicles.

Original 1940s photos of MA with registration numbers earlier than W-2019973 that have 3 hood bumpers could support an argument that the Army sent out a Technical Bulletin to add the 2 outer hood bumpers to early MA in the field.

George
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Willys MA San Francisco 8-14-41.jpg
Willys MA San Francisco 8-14-41.jpg (232.53 KiB) Viewed 526 times

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Fred Coldwell
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by Fred Coldwell » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:38 pm

George:

Here is the top half of the Willys-Overland List of Parts - Numerical page that contains MA parts A-2740, A-2741 and A-2743.
MA outer ws bumpers in LOPN.jpg
MA outer ws bumpers in LOPN.jpg (229.49 KiB) Viewed 520 times

Interestingly, among them is Willys experimental part AE-2742, Proposal No. 2 for a second production run of the Quad 1/4 4x4 Truck, which was never released for production, nor made. :( The "E" in "AE" indicates this part remained experimental and was never released for production; upon an experimental "AE" part being released for production, the "E" was removed and the remaining "A" part number entered production.

Anyway, note the description here of A-2740 for the outer bumper and A-2741 for the outer bumper shim. Both are dated 7-18-41, which I believe is the production release date. The basis for that belief is illustrated at part number A-2748, a hand rail pivot assembly for the new MB then under development. Hand rail pivot A-2748 was released for production on 8-14-41. A follow up note on the next line states this alternate part (along with its sub-parts) became obsolete on 9-5-41 and was never used in production. That obsolescence note would be unnecessary if that part had not earlier been released for production on 8-14-41. Ergo, the dates in the "Supd. By" [Superseded By] column are production release dates. Moreover,
part A-2901 shown on the second Obsolete line is, in fact, the MB top bow pivot assembly that superseded obsolete part A-2748. Neat, neat, neat. :wink:

A-2743 is the Installation Drawing for the outer windshield bumpers, and it was released for production on 7-23-41. So there might have been a 5 day lag between the time the 2 outer w/s bumpers were installed on the production line and when they first were released with instructions for distribution and installation in the field.

I'm honored to assist you in your now fact-based speculation. :D :D
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
MVPA #283C

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Fred Coldwell
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by Fred Coldwell » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 am

George:

Received some pertinent information from a good friend who has been beaten by the ban and can no longer post here. He sent me the entry at the bottom of Change No. 1 page 4 (91) in the MA Parts List TM 10-1102:
TM10-1102 MA pg 91 (4).jpg
TM10-1102 MA pg 91 (4).jpg (111.35 KiB) Viewed 495 times
It is the shim A-2677, as I expected, so that brief mystery is now solved thanks to a MV researcher extraordinairre. I'm so happy with this tidbit that I don't know whether to sing Shim Shim Cher-ee or Shimmy Shimmy Ko-Ko-Bop. :lol:
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
MVPA #283C


George Hollins
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by George Hollins » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:48 am

Photos from May 1941, of the first assembled MA, confirm that the center hood bumper did not have the shim. Willys must have discovered quickly that the windshield in the lowered position, was too close to the hood. Looking at my MA, I speculate that the windshield wiper was rubbing on the hood. Therefore, the shim was added under the center hood bumper.

The addition of the shim A-2677 under the center hood bumper is visible on the 1941 photo of one of the first production MA with registration W-2018937. This vehicle was only 5 registration numbers after the starting MA registration W-2018932. Therefore, it is probable that the shim was added at the start of MA production in June 1941.

Below is a pictorial summary of our MA hood bumper discussion so far. Some of this information is speculation, estimated, and subject to change with further research.

George
Attachments
MA hood bumper summary 22Jan2019 - reduce.jpg
MA hood bumper summary 22Jan2019 - reduce.jpg (247 KiB) Viewed 423 times
MA hood bumper first assembled MA May 1941.jpg
MA hood bumper first assembled MA May 1941.jpg (188.47 KiB) Viewed 423 times
MA hood bumper 5th registered June 1941.jpg
MA hood bumper 5th registered June 1941.jpg (152.08 KiB) Viewed 423 times

Robinb
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by Robinb » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:08 pm

George
Any speculation on why there are black bumpers and also white ones sometimes black in the middle and then white with black shims
On the outside
Robin

George Hollins
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by George Hollins » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:22 pm

White rubber MA hood bumpers?

Below are original 1940s photos showing what Robin discussed above. Photos of early MA that originally had 1 center hood bumper that now have 2 outer hood bumpers added in the field. The 2 outer hood bumpers appear to be white, mounted on black rubber shims.

If you look closely at the original center hood bumper, where it has been worn down from the windshield resting on it, it appears to be white where it is worn. Is it possible that the hood bumpers were painted OD over white rubber?

Also, the third photo shows an MA with 3 hood bumpers on the steps of the Willys Administration building. All 3 hood bumpers are white, mounted on black rubber shims. Possible evidence that all 3 hood bumpers were white rubber?

George
Attachments
MA W-2019012 hood bumpers crop.jpg
MA W-2019012 hood bumpers crop.jpg (221.38 KiB) Viewed 395 times
MA W-2019325 Santa Camp Lee 12Dec1941 hood bumpers.jpg
MA W-2019325 Santa Camp Lee 12Dec1941 hood bumpers.jpg (206.21 KiB) Viewed 395 times
MA Willys administration building 3 hood bumpers crop crop.jpg
MA Willys administration building 3 hood bumpers crop crop.jpg (224.68 KiB) Viewed 395 times

Ladislav
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by Ladislav » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:50 am

Yes George,

correct colour for all 3 hood bumpers is white.
The spacer very probably (not sure) black.

Lad.

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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by soccergorilla » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:45 am

I have an original center bumper and it is clearly black.....Sean.

George Hollins
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Re: MA hood bumpers

Post by George Hollins » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:52 am

Here is a link to the Toledo Library, a high-resolution photo of Willys MA vehicles coming off the assembly line in June 1941. Please observe Toledo-Lucas County Public Library copyright rules at bottom of photo.

http://images2.toledolibrary.org/getdci ... jpg&how=cp

The hood bumpers appear to be white rubber with black shim.

George
Attachments
1941 Willys MA factory assembly line courtesy of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, obtained from httpimages2.toledolibrary.org. reduce 12 crop.jpg
1941 Willys MA factory assembly line courtesy of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, obtained from httpimages2.toledolibrary.org. reduce 12 crop.jpg (90.84 KiB) Viewed 257 times
1941 Willys MA factory assembly line courtesy of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, obtained from httpimages2.toledolibrary.org. reduce 12.jpg
1941 Willys MA factory assembly line courtesy of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, obtained from httpimages2.toledolibrary.org. reduce 12.jpg (180.69 KiB) Viewed 257 times

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