Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

and other stuff up in the air
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Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Tim Shanteler » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:48 am

Story is unfolding..... check news outlets for details
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by W. Winget » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:23 am

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ABryant » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:42 am

Very Sad Day!!! I flew on that plane back in March!! Super Nice crew!!! I am very sad for the families involved as well as the loss of history!!!

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by whitey1736 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:23 pm

Just flew on it this past Friday. Pilot was encouraging my wife to get her pilots license because she’d always wanted to. She booked the flight for me as a birthday present and was apprehensive about it at first for this very reason. It’s very sad, up to 5 dead.

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by jesse » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:19 pm

What a tragedy. I took this picture of Nine-0-Nine in 1984 when it was still fighting fires in Redding California.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by D_Conrad » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:42 pm

Deaths are up to 7. So sad. Saw her back in April. Here are a few photos from then. Bad quality from the resize
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Tonywan Kanobby » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:48 pm

Just caught the news of this today. Yes, very sad.

My hat is off to those who pilot, maintain, and love these awesome historical aircraft. Tough deal.

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ng19delta » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:53 pm

They have any preliminary yet? As an A&P, I'd surmise that with the cascading engine failure 909 seemed to be experiencing, the only cause which jumps out is a fuel issue- such as misfueled with jet fuel instead of avgas. (There are more than a few of us with this thought) Fuel seems to be the only thing which could potentially affect all engines at the same time... No other system could do that...

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Cal.Bar » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:14 pm

ng19delta wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:53 pm
They have any preliminary yet? As an A&P, I'd surmise that with the cascading engine failure 909 seemed to be experiencing, the only cause which jumps out is a fuel issue- such as misfueled with jet fuel instead of avgas. (There are more than a few of us with this thought) Fuel seems to be the only thing which could potentially affect all engines at the same time... No other system could do that...

Scott
So if mis-fueled, how did it pass pre-flight checks? Wouldn't the experienced pilot realize his engines weren't running right? Sound wrong? Wrong RPM's something? How did it get into the air in the first place? Having never flown any aircraft (much less a mis-fueled one) I find it hard to believe that such a thing could actually happen.

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by W. Winget » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:43 pm

Totally wrong to half ass speculate.
Only #3 was an issue, there are way too many things it could be that contributed to a loss of control during abnormal landing.
Just wrong to bench lawyer this.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:03 pm

I would give anything if I could make time back up a week, warbird crashes are not a spectator sport.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ng19delta » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:11 pm

Cal.Bar wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:14 pm
ng19delta wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:53 pm
They have any preliminary yet? As an A&P, I'd surmise that with the cascading engine failure 909 seemed to be experiencing, the only cause which jumps out is a fuel issue- such as misfueled with jet fuel instead of avgas. (There are more than a few of us with this thought) Fuel seems to be the only thing which could potentially affect all engines at the same time... No other system could do that...

Scott
So if mis-fueled, how did it pass pre-flight checks? Wouldn't the experienced pilot realize his engines weren't running right? Sound wrong? Wrong RPM's something? How did it get into the air in the first place? Having never flown any aircraft (much less a mis-fueled one) I find it hard to believe that such a thing could actually happen.
Remember- the fuel in the lines would still have been good: Until the contaminated fuel reached the cylinders, there would be no indication. And it may have been only one affected tank- and when switched to THEN the contaminated fuel would start making its way to the engine- yet it would still take time to fail.Yes, it should have been noticed at preflight, but may not have been. And, most likely they did NOT preflight between tour flights as the aircraft had just landed from a flight: Fuel could have been put in one to several flights previously, and the tank unused until they switched to it just before takeoff. The engine would not start to fail until the contaminated fuel made its way through the lines, into the carburetors, then into the cylinders where there would be a power loss at first, then engine failure as the jet fuel concentration reached higher levels, and eventually the cylinders would fail to fire. It can take a varying amount of time to reach the engine. The nozzle should not have fit- BUT these type misfuelings HAVE been known to happen and be missed. Even Bob Hoover had an engine fail in his yellow Mustang after a refuel where the line boy put jet fuel into it.

Fueling issues are the number ONE cause of incidents- even more so than "pilot error". This can be anything from contaminated fuel, misfuel, system failure, component failure, etc. There is no other single system which could fail and cause more than one engine to fail- and we know he had multiple failures. Electrical System failure would not affect power or ignition: Electrical on the engine is limited to the starting and charging circuits: Magnetos produce their own power. And each engine has two separate magnetos, so you would need a minimum of four separate magneto failures for an ignition system failure of two engines. Induction System would have required a complete blockage of both the intake airflow and the alternate airflow to kill even one engine. Not likely, Just leaves fuel- The fuel system is common to all four engines: They do have separate tanks, but all engines can run from one tank by transferring fuel between tanks to the engine feeder tank.

And I'm not "half assed guessing". The initial report was that more than just one engine was the issue: but only one had failed and was feathered. I'm an A&P mechanic, and a pilot. This is an educated hypothesis, based on the info available at the time. If I am incorrect, that's fine, it does not matter either way. But is is good to speculate- as long as you are not directly involved in the investigation, because it lets you think through the possibilities, and eliminate the obviously defective ones. And very few B-17s have gone down because of engine failure on one engine- unless it was accompanied by flak hits...

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:20 pm

??????????
A gas engine won't run on Jet Fuel. Or Diesel. Or kerosene. ??????
My opinion, backed up with a little practical experience is, yes it will. But not for long.
There is considerably more BTUs in Jet fuel than gasoline. That equates to more heat and more cylinder pressure. Much more than a gas engine is designed for.
You may not get a cold gas engine started on Jet fuel. But, if the engine starts on gas before the Jet fuel gets to the cylinder and the cylinder is up to operating temperature, when the Jet fuel hits the cylinder, the engine will run just long enough for something to break !! Knock, Rattle & blow.
Cause in point. Just had an Aerostar crash, a few days ago, just north of my AO, about 20 miles. Gas engines. Report I heard was the line boy ask the pilot if he wanted Jet fuel. The line boy said the pilot told him, Yes. ???
Line boy had a hard time getting the nozzle into the tanks ( was not suppose to fit ) but after spilling some fuel, managed to fill the tanks.
Pilot boarded the plane, apparently without doing a pre-flite check, and took off. All on the ground said the engines sounded normal.
5 miles south of the departure airport, the plane crashed. Engine failure. The pilot, the sole passenger, did not make it.
On inspection, Jet fuel was found in the fuel lines on both engines. It was also noted, the electrodes on most of the spark plugs had been burned off. That is a lot of heat.
Some antique tractor engines ran on " All Fuel", which was real close to kerosene. They had to be started on gas, cold and then switched to all fuel when they warmed up. They were also heavy industrial engines and only had a compression ratio of about 5 to 1.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ng19delta » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:07 pm

Wolfman wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:20 pm
??????????
A gas engine won't run on Jet Fuel. Or Diesel. Or kerosene. ??????
My opinion, backed up with a little practical experience is, yes it will. But not for long.
There is considerably more BTUs in Jet fuel than gasoline. That equates to more heat and more cylinder pressure. Much more than a gas engine is designed for.
You may not get a cold gas engine started on Jet fuel. But, if the engine starts on gas before the Jet fuel gets to the cylinder and the cylinder is up to operating temperature, when the Jet fuel hits the cylinder, the engine will run just long enough for something to break !! Knock, Rattle & blow.
Cause in point. Just had an Aerostar crash, a few days ago, just north of my AO, about 20 miles. Gas engines. Report I heard was the line boy ask the pilot if he wanted Jet fuel. The line boy said the pilot told him, Yes. ???
Line boy had a hard time getting the nozzle into the tanks ( was not suppose to fit ) but after spilling some fuel, managed to fill the tanks.
Pilot boarded the plane, apparently without doing a pre-flite check, and took off. All on the ground said the engines sounded normal.
5 miles south of the departure airport, the plane crashed. Engine failure. The pilot, the sole passenger, did not make it.
On inspection, Jet fuel was found in the fuel lines on both engines. It was also noted, the electrodes on most of the spark plugs had been burned off. That is a lot of heat.
Some antique tractor engines ran on " All Fuel", which was real close to kerosene. They had to be started on gas, cold and then switched to all fuel when they warmed up. They were also heavy industrial engines and only had a compression ratio of about 5 to 1.
Jet fuel requires a high-intensity, high amperage, high heat energy spark to ignite and burn: Spark plugs DO NOT deliver sufficient heat energy, amperage, nor intensity required by a large margin. Additionally, the fuel MUST be properly atomized to turn to a vapor to even be ignitable at that point. Jet engines constantly spray fuel into the burner section of the engine after the diffuser, which converts the velocity of the air coming out of the compressor section into pressure going into the burner. The fuel is then ignited ONCE during the operation of the engine, and the igniters then shut off, as the flame is self continuing: Think ignited natural gas in your grille- the igniter sparks, the fuel lights, and the igniter shuts off.

A gasoline engine fires at the end of each compression stroke, and the vapor pressure of the fuel (7psi for aircraft, 14psi for autos) ensures the fuel entering the cylinder is well vaporized. Jet fuel has a vapor pressure of LESS than .1psi (unless it is Jet B, which is a mix of jet fuel and avgas which has a vapor pressure of 2-3psi) and it does NOT vaporize in the induction system, and proceeds to foul the plugs to the point they no longer fire, and the engine stops running. This is because the plugs are quite incapable of igniting the fuel as it is. Even with heat in this engine, it is NOT enough to get combustion of the jet fuel. Additionally, as fuel enters the cylinder, it draws heat from the cylinder, which helps cool the engine: Jet fuel will not vaporize, and will instead cool the cylinder, further reducing the ability of the engine to convert the jet fuel into vapor. (Vapor pressure is the amount of pressure required above the fuel to keep the vapor down: Air pressure at ground level is 14.7psi (standard day pressure, varies with temp, etc. Vapor pressure relates to the volatility of the fuel: its ability to convert from a liquid to a gas. The higher the vapor pressure, the more readily it changes from a vapor to a gas. This is the same property that creates vapor lock.)

Now a diesel engine is a reciprocating engine which will run on jet fuel: BUT its designed to do so: Diesel fuel ignites due to pressure and temperature: hence the Glow Plugs, which are not like spark plugs at all, but instead HEAT the cylinder to the point that fuel sprayed in will vaporize- this vapor is compressed (and additional heating due to compression is created) and the fuel ignites- basically a form of controlled detonation- hence the much heavier construction of the diesel engines. The "all fuel" engine you described sounds like rather than glow plugs, it used the gas cycling to heat up sufficiently to then run diesel.

Jet fuel in avgas will burn in a recip engine- as long as there is a sufficiently heavy charge of avgas with it: The avgas is igniting, the heat of the burning fuel ignites the diesel. BUT as the avgas proportional to the jet fuel decreases, the heat within the cylinder is insufficient to cause ignition with compression; the plugs foul and don't fire the remaining avgas, the cycle fails, and the engine ceases to run.

As mentioned, I am an A&P- I also teach A&P students; fuel systems is one of my courses- this includes properties of the fuel, and how it ignites...

Scott

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:13 am

:D Yes.
But let me bring you up to speed on "All Fuel" engines. And farmers, Scott.
As I said, All Fuel is a close cousin to kerosene. That is not too far from Jet fuel. All fuel was cheaper ( where farmers come in to the picture ) than gas and actually produced a little more power than gas. More BTUs to the pound.
These engines were low compression ( 5:1). They used a single carb. but had two fuel tanks. One small tank that held gas, to get the engine started & warmed up, and a selector valve that switched to a larger tank that held the " All Fuel ". Both fuels were fed to the single carb. where it was atomized and went to the cylinders, compressed and ignited by a spark plug. At no time was the two fuels mixed, except maybe briefly during the fuel switch. Nothing diesel about this.
Only ignition source, like most aircraft gas engines, a magneto that fired a spark plug in the cylinder.
These engines were manufactured by companies like Farmall and John Deere, there were thousands of them made, and they ran for many thousands of hours.
As for the rest of the hands on experience with diesel in gas engines. My mother filled her 1973 Chevy, with a 350 V-8 gas engine, with diesel fuel several years ago, by accident. I admit, it still had some gas in the tank when she did this, but drove the car 5 miles, to get to my shop to tell me, she thought the car had a problem. It was making strange knocking noises. Especially when she gave it the gas. It smelled like a Kenworth when I went to look at it. Still idling in the drive. I shut it off and it had time to cool before I tried to restart it. It wouldn't.
I drained the tank. Flushed the fuel system. Refilled it with gas and she drove the car quite a while with no further problems. Note: I was impressed. I did not know what to expect.
Always a pleasure comparing notes with fellow mechanics and aviators. Been a professional mechanic for 52 years and professional aviator/aircraft builder for 45 years.
Sad about Nine - 0 - Nine. The aircraft was at the Purdue airport in Lafayette, In. not long ago. A good friend of mine got to ride in it.
Mike
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