Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ng19delta » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:24 am

Wright R-1820s aren't all fuel engines... ;) & Jet A is not quite the same as diesel: Diesel has a higher volatility, as does kerosene... Less than avgas, but more than Jet-A...

I can understand an engine made specifically to use diesel and gasoline working- it was made to a different spec, and for a different purpose. I can even understand a misfueled Chevy working: again, different animal. Multifuel military trucks can operate that way, but you know aircraft engines are not made to. Even accidentally. The ignition of jet fuel and diesel is much more powerful, and that can cause severe damage in the wrong engine should it ignite- basically like repetitive detonation causing multiple shockwaves within the cylinder, slamming all the components horribly... And with a higher compression engine as a radial aircraft engine is, the effect will be catastrophic.

Has there been any other info from NTSB yet?

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Hammerhead » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:16 pm

Scott may be on to something.
Back in 1986 there was a DC-3 that was still being used as a commercial carrier that had been mis-fueled with Jet Fuel at Lambert Field. It was able to take off but quickly developed engine problems. The pilots declared an emergency, were able to turn around and almost made it back to the Airport. When they saw they were not going to make it, they could have landed on Hwy 70 which runs beside the Airport but due to traffic tried to land beside the Hwy. The two pilots were killed in the crash.
The NTSB investigation discovered an inexperienced 18 year worker had accidently put the wrong fuel in the DC-3.

Whatever the causes of the 909 crash, it was a horrible tragedy.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:55 am

Have not heard of any new reports.
The NTSB will be quite thorough and no doubt take some time.
Reality is, the news media will drop the coverage and unless deliberately following the situation, when the report comes out, it may be missed.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by clintm20 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:21 pm

They were so close to making it back ok. Condolences to all involved.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by yd328 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:46 pm

The NTSBs preliminary report is out. It seems there was no fuel contamination. The fuel truck was quarantined and tested too.

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by W. Winget » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:41 pm

Now speculate about Tire pressure until the reports read....
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by GI. » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:53 am

yd328 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:46 pm
The NTSBs preliminary report is out. It seems there was no fuel contamination. The fuel truck was quarantined and tested too.
Gary
Waiting for Scott's reply? :lol:
All his work, out the fuel vents, this is why you should wait for the real experts word.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ng19delta » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:21 am

GI. wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:53 am
yd328 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:46 pm
The NTSBs preliminary report is out. It seems there was no fuel contamination. The fuel truck was quarantined and tested too.
Gary
Waiting for Scott's reply? :lol:
All his work, out the fuel vents, this is why you should wait for the real experts word.
Well, I'm glad to know it wasn't some kid having misfueled it. Now that has been eliminated, they can look at the next likely cause. So snark on. If you are investigating, first eliminate the obvious...

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by sjalbert » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:13 am

ng19delta wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:07 pm
Jet fuel in avgas will burn in a recip engine- as long as there is a sufficiently heavy charge of avgas with it...
Back in the 90's I occasionally ran a small amount of diesel in my MB (1 gallon diesel / 14 gallons regular gas).
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by GI. » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:10 pm

Waiting for Scott's reply? :lol:
All his work, out the fuel vents, this is why you should wait for the real experts word.
[/quote]
Well, I'm glad to know it wasn't some kid having misfueled it. Now that has been eliminated, they can look at the next likely cause. So snark on. If you are investigating, first eliminate the obvious...
[/quote]

ng19delta,
Did not mean to sound so rude, but you did go on and on with your "wrong fuel" theory. :wink:

During 2004 in the United States pilot error was listed as the primary cause of 78.6% of fatal general aviation accidents, and as the primary cause of 75.5% of general aviation accidents overall, I doubt it has changed much to this date.
You say: first eliminate the obvious, then the 1st thing would be pilot error, right ?
As bad as I hate to out guess the experts, in mho I would start with pilot error. yep..other things could have gone wrong, but loosing one engine would be a minor problem.
I'm still going to wait on the experts word. :wink:
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by ng19delta » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:35 pm

GI. wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:10 pm
Waiting for Scott's reply? :lol:
All his work, out the fuel vents, this is why you should wait for the real experts word.
Well, I'm glad to know it wasn't some kid having misfueled it. Now that has been eliminated, they can look at the next likely cause. So snark on. If you are investigating, first eliminate the obvious...
[/quote]

ng19delta,
Did not mean to sound so rude, but you did go on and on with your "wrong fuel" theory. :wink:

During 2004 in the United States pilot error was listed as the primary cause of 78.6% of fatal general aviation accidents, and as the primary cause of 75.5% of general aviation accidents overall, I doubt it has changed much to this date.
You say: first eliminate the obvious, then the 1st thing would be pilot error, right ?
As bad as I hate to out guess the experts, in mho I would start with pilot error. yep..other things could have gone wrong, but loosing one engine would be a minor problem.
I'm still going to wait on the experts word. :wink:
[/quote]

"Pilot Error" is the catch all the NTSB uses to explain any accident they can't figure out the true cause of, and from which the dead pilot cannot defend themselves. It is a great blank check to explain away pretty much any issue, such as a bad computer system in the Boeing 737 MAX- until circumstances force them to look elsewhere.

As to the fuel, They only said ONE of the TWO tanks involved was uncontaminated... I'm still waiting to hear about the other, but not holding my breath. But the ONLY cause I can think of which would kill TWO engines on the same wing, at the same time, is fuel. There are four magnetos, each independent of the other, which would have to fail to have ignition system failure to that point. Each has its own oil supply. Did two of the most experienced B-17 pilots in the world accidentally cut the mixture to two engines? Was there simultaneous control failure on the same wing? Both engines on the same wing were feathered, or in the process of feathering. This creates greater drag on one side... All the thrust was on the other- which tells me the most likely reason the aircraft turned to the right as they came in to land...

Anyway, have fun with it. I had my say, now I'm waiting for the final report. Just hope they don't just toss it into the easiest pile, and blame the dead for something they didn't do...

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:11 am

Just had a look at the preliminary NTSB report, AOPA published in the weekly newsletter.
909 had taken off and never left the pattern or was ever higher than 500 Ft. AGL. ( Above Ground Level for the non flying folks ).
One of the pilots called the tower and said they thought they had a rough Mag. on Eng. #4 and was returning for a landing. The tower approved.
The tower called and ask how things were going and one of the pilots replied, " We are getting there.". At that time the aircraft was down to 300 Ft. AGL.
That was the last report.
The aircraft hit approach lights 1000 Ft. short of the end of the runway. Then made ground contact short of the runway and skidded right into the deicing storage tanks.
Post crash inspection showed the #4 engine prop was feathered. Only one propeller blade had ground impact. It was not running.
#3 propeller had one blade feathered and the other two were at low pitch. The tip of one blade had broken off and was found some distance away.
The fuel tank that supplied fuel to the #3 engine was checked visually, still had fuel in it and the fuel was stated to not be contaminated.
The full report will be published at a later date.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by W. Winget » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:23 am

I could 'speculate' a right wing stall in final approach, as he's 300 AGL (beyond) 1000' out from the runway.
Not sure if the pitch difference in one hub would have been changed based on it striking the ground with one and possible stripping a gear while the other two remained in another orientation, (I'm not a Variable Pitch Prop Hub post crash inspector/metallurgist expert and don't claim to have stayed in Holiday inn last night) but if two engines were in trouble on one side or someone feathered the wrong one accidentally or (insert any million possibilities.... :( )
I doubt there will be another B-17 that suffers this same type crash, there just are not enough of them left to suddenly develop a trend.

Recall this pilot was one if not the most experienced B-17 pilots out there along with a well qualified First Officer, the NTSB likely called upon them when a B-17 had an issue for investigation.
It's a terrible and sad event for all involved.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:21 am

Got to agree LTC. The basic scenario is beginning to surface.
If the right outboard engine failed or was shut down and the inboard engine was having an issue as well, keeping the aircraft straight would have been a bear of a task. A B-17 has a big rudder but that would put it to the test. As well as the pilots left leg on the rudder pedal.
The left two engines would have been all that was keeping the airspeed up and would have been trying to turn the aircraft right. Which is ultimately what happened.
The left engines power would of had to be pretty high, in an attempt to maintain airspeed at it's low altitude, which only compounded the problem.
The two pilots at the controls were the most experienced B-17 pilots flying. But, that does not make them exempt from the pressure of a situation like this.
Not familiar with the area around the accident site. Maybe a power off, off airport landing might have been a better option. Don't know ???
Suly put an airliner in the Hudson instead of trying to turn back.
Hind sight is 20/20.
Speculation.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by clintm20 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:19 am

The flight engineer was the only crew member to survive so I'd think his testimony will fill in a lot of what we don't know assuming he has full recall.
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