Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

and other stuff up in the air
warbrds
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by warbrds » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:20 pm

Very good post

Always taught students the gas not in the tank, the runway behind you, and the altitude above you does you no good
And checklists are extremely important...


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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by GPW1263 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:41 pm

Does anyone remember Cessna's promotional pins from way back?

They were the kind with a little tab that just folded over and allowed you to wear it on a collar or shirt pocket.

They had the Cessna logo and read,

"Fly, or drive like you might get killed."

I have never forgotten that sentiment and I wish I had found one in my Dad's effects after he died. I guess one of my siblings got it. :|

Cheers,
GPW1263

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Steve Webb » Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:28 pm

Has a final report ever been issued?
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by clintm20 » Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:46 am

Steve Webb wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:28 pm
Has a final report ever been issued?
Yes.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Steve Webb » Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:34 am

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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by D_Conrad » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:42 pm

Spoke about this with a wwii B-17 pilot. He is convinced the pilot failed to adjust the trim that was applied to counteract the loss of power on one side before landing. Hi reaoning for being so sure I'd he said it happened to him on a landing after a mission where he suffered an engine loss.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:02 am

One thing I did not see in the NTSB report was, "Pilot Error". My opinion, it was. The maintenance issue may have started the problem.
Most aviation accidents are the result of a situation where the pilot encounters a problem and is put under a lot of stress for any number of reasons.
The pilot must make proper choices to achieve the best outcome. Maybe this turns out OK and maybe not, but a lot of times, a bad ending is not just one wrong choice, but a domino effect of many wrong choices.
My speculation from this point. I was not in the cockpit.
What started as a normal flight went bad when the right (#4) outboard engine lost power at a low altitude. Bad!
Now there is more thrust on the left side of the aircraft than on the right. The nose of the aircraft is trying to turn right because of this. First reaction, add left rudder to straighten up the flight path, then adjust the rudder trim to compensate. Your left leg is going to get tired really fast.
You are already low. The drag on the aircraft just went up and there is a loss of power. Need to keep the airspeed up while deciding what is the next best choice.
Then the inboard right engine (#3) loses power. The situation just got worse. Now you are not only trying to maintain directional control but also maintain airspeed. You lost half of your thrust, all on the right side of the aircraft and you are low and slowing down.
You would really like to be back on the runway. You are in a very rare and expensive aircraft with other people on board. Pressure is building and the desire for a happy ending is pushing the stress level over the top.
This is where the bad choices domino.
As I recall, didn't the pilot try to fly the pattern to land upwind instead of making a straight in downwind landing ?? Lost altitude and maybe airspeed as a result.
On final and extremely low & slow, the landing gear is lowered ?? Creating more drag.
Maybe the flaps too, but that could have been an attempt to get the last bit of lift available to reach the end of the runway. Still created more drag.
The power on the 2 left engines was most likely pretty high in an attempt to keep the airspeed up and stretch the approach to reach the runway. The aircraft is trying to turn right.
The only directional controls on a B-17 is the rudder, in the air and on the ground, which fades away with the airspeed. Not cool to try to use individual braking on landing, especially in a taildragger. Not enough airspeed and the aircraft makes the right turn it has been trying to make since this began, when it hit the ground.
The rest is history.
Very sad !!
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Steve Webb » Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:15 am

7,300 hours in the B-17 and was chief maintenance officer. I remember him when I flew on it a few years back. Bad set of circumstances all around.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by clintm20 » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:31 pm

Based on my reading of reports the NTSB rarely if ever uses the term "pilot error". Recently there was a Baron pilot that took off with a known bad engine, i think maybe to get it to another field for maintenance or whatever. He had two attempted takeoffs he aborted then managed to get airborne on the third try then that bad engine could take no more abuse and let go and he stalled, rolled and made himself into a smoking hole in the ground. When that report comes out it will probably not say pilot error but of course that is exactly what it is. Sometimes the fatal error is made before the engines are started. The thing that puzzles me about Nine O Nine is the right hand downwind.
Why did he do that?
Last edited by clintm20 on Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Bryan » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:02 am

A friend is a sub contractor inspector for the NTSB, he told me that the inboard prop blade became disconnected and severed the outboard engine motor mounts, a B17 can fly on 2 engines but not 2 on one side, no chance when one is disconected and hanging down, i would not belive this but it came from a inside source, the report says nothing about this
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by sjalbert » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:25 am

clintm20 wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:31 pm
Based on my reading of reports the NTSB rarely if ever uses the term "pilot error". Recently there was a Barron pilot that took off with a known bad engine, i think maybe to get it to another field for maintenance or whatever. Of course that bad engine let go just after he got airborne and he stalled, rolled and made himself into a smoking hole in the ground. When that report comes out it will probably not say pilot error but of course that is exactly what it is. Sometimes the fatal error is made before the engines are started. The thing that puzzles me about Nine O Nine is the right hand downwind.
Why did he do that?
He probably was barely able to maintain heading. With that much differential thrust he probably couldn't turn left.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by YLG80 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:23 pm

Bryan wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:02 am
A friend is a sub contractor inspector for the NTSB, …
Is the NTSB really outsourcing the inspection? :o
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by clintm20 » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:57 am

Bryan wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:02 am
A friend is a sub contractor inspector for the NTSB, he told me that the inboard prop blade became disconnected and severed the outboard engine motor mounts, a B17 can fly on 2 engines but not 2 on one side, no chance when one is disconected and hanging down, i would not belive this but it came from a inside source, the report says nothing about this
I don't believe it either, there is video of it attempting to land that does not show an engine hanging down.
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by Wolfman » Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:15 am

Just went back through all 4 pages of post.
First source of any intel was an article in EAA's Sport Aviation magazine.
That article said a first post-crash inspection noted the #4 engine's propeller blades were all feathered and only one blade had ground impact damaged. The engine had quit running. Not sure why ?? The prop was not turning and had been feathered. For the non-aviation folks, that means the adjustable pitch propeller had stopped turning and the blades were turned so they were flat fore & aft, they were not in their normal position, to reduce drag.
The prop on the #3 engine prop was different. One blade was in the feathered position and the other blades were at low pitch ??? One of the blade tips on this engine was broke off but found near the wreck. Did not come off in flight.
Got interrupted.
If the #3 prop had been feathered, all the blades would have been feathered. Not just 1 blade. There was a problem with the prop hub ??
I believe the report also said one of the engines was tore loose from the engine mount but this was thought to be from crash impact. Not an inflight failure.
The flight engineer was the only survivor. Investigators was waiting for him to recover before interviewing him. I wonder if that ever happened ??
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Re: Collins Nine O Nine Crashes at Bradley

Post by clintm20 » Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:32 pm

I reviewed the report again, it had been a few months. I think they were planning on a right turn after departure and were in that when they noticed that they had a big problem. At least that is the point they contact the tower and tell them they need to return.

It might be noted they took off from the runway intersection rather than the threshold so they only had half the runway available for an abort.

Recall reading the flight engineer was new and still training up at the time of the accident. The report refers to him as the loadmaster. His statement was short on details. This is from the report regarding number 4 engine:

When the loadmaster returned to the cockpit, he realized that the airplane was no longer
climbing, and the pilot, realizing the same, instructed the copilot to extend the landing gear,
which he did. The loadmaster left the cockpit to instruct the passengers to return to their seats
and fasten their seat belts. When the loadmaster returned again to the cockpit, the pilot stated
that the No. 4 engine was losing power; the pilot then shut down that engine and feathered the
propeller without any further coordination or discussion.

No mention from the loadmaster about feathering number 3. However the report says number 3 was in low pitch and not feathered:

When the airplane was at an altitude of about 400 ft agl, it was on a midfield right downwind
leg for runway 6. Witness video showed that the landing gear had already been extended by
that time, even though the airplane still had about 2.7 nautical miles to fly in the traffic pattern
before reaching the runway 6 threshold.
During final approach, the airplane struck the runway 6 approach lights in a right-wing-down
attitude about 1,000 ft before the runway and then contacted the ground about 500 ft before
the runway. After landing short of the runway, the airplane traveled onto the right edge of the
runway threshold and continued to veer to the right. The airplane collided with vehicles and a
deicing fluid tank before coming to rest upright about 940 ft to the right of the runway. A
postcrash fire ensued.
Postaccident examination of the airframe revealed no preimpact mechanical anomalies that
would have precluded normal operation. Teardown examination of the Nos. 3 and 4 propellers
revealed that their blades were in the low-pitch and feathered positions, respectively.

Teardown examination of the No. 4 engine revealed that the left magneto’s P-lead was partially
pulled out of the magneto housing and that a single strand of safety wire was around the
retaining nut. Although the No. 4 engine’s left magneto produced a strong spark on the ignition
leads for all nine cylinders, the grounding tab contacted the housing and caused the magneto to
short and not function during a postaccident test. The No. 4 engine’s right magneto produced
no spark on one of the nine ignition leads and a weak and intermittent spark on the other eight
ignition leads because of wear to the compensator cam. The shorted-out left magneto would
have caused rough engine operation and a partial loss of engine power that would have been
exacerbated by the weak right magneto, which is likely what prompted the pilot to shut down
the No. 4 engine and return to the airport.
With the No. 4 engine shut down, the pilot would have had to use a higher power setting for the
No. 3 engine to compensate for the loss of power from the No. 4 engine. Teardown examination
of the No. 3 engine revealed evidence of detonation on four of the nine cylinders. In addition,
the teardown examination revealed that the spark plugs were worn and had gaps between the
electrodes that were beyond the manufacturer’s specifications. The condition of the spark plugs
likely resulted in detonation and a partial loss of engine power that further reduced the total
thrust available and exacerbated the thrust asymmetry. The pilot likely did not recognize, or
recognized too late, the extent of the loss of engine power on the airplane’s right side.

The pilot had performed a preflight run-up check of the magnetos at an engine speed of 1,700
rpm, which was higher than the 1,600-rpm speed in the Collings Foundation’s run-up
checklist; after the check, the magnetos appeared to perform normally. However, a B-17 engine
ground test checklist included instructions to check the magnetos at an engine speed between
1,900 and 2,000 rpm. If the pilots had been required to perform the magneto check at the
higher rpm, they might have detected the detonation on the No. 3 engine and/or the magneto
anomalies on the No. 4 engine (if either resulted in an rpm drop that exceeded 100 rpm, which
would have been inconsistent with the B-17’s acceptable limits) and taken action before the
flight to resolve the issues.

During the return to the airport, the pilot flew the traffic pattern at an airspeed of 100 mph and
below, and he allowed the airspeed to decay far below that required to minimize the loss of
altitude over a given distance flown (about 120 mph). It is likely that the airplane was unable to
maintain altitude at the lower airspeeds because the pilot could apply only a limited amount of
power to the left-wing engines while simultaneously trimming the asymmetric thrust with the
available rudder authority. Extending the landing gear created additional drag that exacerbated
this situation; the landing gear should not have been extended until it became evident that the
airplane could reach the runway. If the pilot had lowered the airplane’s nose to maintain the
airspeed that was initially achieved during the climb and kept the landing gear retracted until
landing on the runway was assured, the NTSB’s airplane performance study showed that the
airplane could likely have overflown the approach lights and touched down beyond the runway
threshold. Thus, the pilot did not appropriately manage the airplane’s configuration and
airspeed after he shut down the No. 4 engine.

On one of the aviation forums someone claimed the B-17 flight manual called for flaps 10 in a two engine on one side out situation but I don't know if that is true or if it applies right after takeoff. I don't see that the report mentions that.
Last edited by clintm20 on Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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