M8 serial number 6975

[Rakkasan187]

Good afternoon everyone,

My name is Leigh Smith Jr and I am the curator of the 1st Armored Division and Fort Bliss Museum. One of the artifacts we have is an M8 and it is currently at the paint shop for conservation and restoration. We just recently found the serial number of this M8 as the paint was so thick we never knew what the number was.

We were hoping that the members here would be able to help us verify the serial number and what the USA number would be with this M8 as well as when it was made and some other vital information that has been missing from the historical records for many years. We were excited to get word back from the paint shop about them finding the serial number in order to update the M8/M20 list and locations.

I will attach a few images and we really hope that the members here will be able to help us out. I am still trying to see if I can find some images of the M8 when it was in Germany with the various locations of 1AD in the 70s through 2000s. When I find some I will load them as well.

Thank you again and we look forward to hearing back from you all.

Best regards, stay safe

Leigh Smith Jr

[dlk]

Add the "key" number "6032224" to the US Ordnance Serial Number (6975 for yours), you can derive the original USA Registration Number...6039199 for your vehicle.

[Rakkasan187]

dlk,

Thank you very much for this information and I sincerely apologize for not replying sooner.

I tried to figure this out based on the information that I found here but I think I was off on the "key" number.

I tried some of the math but was not sure if I had done the calculations right. It appears that the registration number I came up was quite wrong, which I presume would have also made the month that our M8 was manufactured also wrong. (I was thinking September 1943 based on my math)

Based on the information I found for the USA key number I used 6032903 (Ordnance Serial numbers 6908-9367) and I added our Ordnance number 6975 and came up with 6039878, so this validates I can't do math..

Very pleased with this information and I truly appreciate your efforts in helping us. We will be sure to forward this information to the LRC where the M8 is being conserved/preserved in order to apply the proper markings.

On a side note to the M8s. We have some unpublished photos of some M8s from the 81st Cav Recon/1st Armored Division that were used by members of the First Special Service Force that conducted a diversionary raid in Italy in 1944 and we have one image of an M8 that has some art painted on the side of the M8 on the driver's side. The image is of a white rabbit being pulled out of a black top hat and what appears to be the name "Black Magic" next to the image. A little further back on the side of the M8 is a USA number that is almost fully legible with the exception of 1 or 2 numbers being concealed by a strap holding down a shovel. I believe the USA number is: 6-0-3-2-2-?-2. We would like to replicate this M8 when it comes back from the LRC but we also don't want to compromise the USA number that would be on the M8 based on our serial number. We will most likely have a detailed text panel explaining the modification, OR we will provide a very large hi-resolution image of the M8 getting ready for the raid next to the M8 with the proper USA number based again on our serial number. What are your thoughts? We would like some suggestions from folks...

I am currently working on two additional research projects: 1. A Panzer III Ausf N that the museum obtained from the Armor and Cavalry Training Support Facility at Fort Benning a few weeks ago, and 2. A M4 Sherman that we received from Ft Hood, Texas a few months ago. The Sherman has direct provenance to the 1st Armored Division as it was issued to one of the armored units in Italy in July 1944, so I am bouncing back and forth on several projects.

I look forward to updating everyone on the progress/status of the vehicles we have here at the museum. Not too much research has ever really been conducted on the tanks previously, so I want to get as much information as possible to help inform those interested.

Best regards, stay safe

Leigh

[Tuareg]

Hello, I have a jeep made 27th july 1942 that I am pretty sure it was in the 1st Armored Division.

I have sent you a PM

Thanks

[Joe DeMarco]

Hi Leigh

>Based on the information I found for the USA key number I used 6032903 (Ordnance Serial numbers 6908-9367) and I added our Ordnance number 6975 and came up with 6039878, so this validates I can't do math..

There is nothing wrong with your math.
You used the proper "key number" the first time to come up with USA 6039878.
Suggest you paint that on your M8 Armored Car.

By any chance did you find another (different) number stamped right about in the middle of the glacis plate?
We think it might be the Manufacturer's SN, and different from the Ordnance SN.

Joe DeMarco
Sherman Minutia
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html

[Tuareg]

Sherman Minutia
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html

Fantastic web, amazing!! Thanks very much for sharing it

[Rakkasan187]

Good afternoon Joe,

Thank you for your reply and your confirmation. I thought I was doing it right, but it never hurts to have another set of eyes confirm for us. This is a learning process for many of us as my expertise lies in the 187th Airborne and not so much in armor or vehicles.

I will be contacting the LRC to see if they have found any more numbers when they bring it down to the metal and I just sent them a message to check the front glacis as well..

If they do find some additional numbers, I will be sure to post them and let everyone know.

We really appreciate everyone's help and support on validating the information for us. We strive to be historically accurate and we want to make sure that the data and information we provide to everyone will be accurate.

Grateful for the Admin team to allow us access to your forums as well as the incredible knowledge and talent base here.

Looking forward to updating everyone on some of the other vehicles and equipment we have here at the museum. (I will be sure to post each piece of equipment in the appropriate sections)

Best regards everyone, stay safe

Leigh

[blackcat77]

Hello;
I agree with Joe DeMarco for your register number 6039878.
I have owned the M8: 6502 RN: USA 6039405, in France since 1990 and i have been driving it since 1994.
My brother also has an M8: 5798 RN: 6038701
Regards;
Serge

[Rakkasan187]

Serge,

Thank you for the extra confirmation. It is wonderful that you and your brother both have the ability to own and drive an M8 and to preserve the history of this vehicle.

I am only just now discovering some of the finer details of our vehicle history and I am looking forward to sharing what we know with the members of the forum in order to add the museum's example to the database of locations and existing M8s.

I received a follow up email from the LRC but I was not able to read it before the end of the business day so I will read it tomorrow and see what the LRC shop has to say about their progress with paint removal

Thank you again.

Best regards

Leigh

[John Neuenburg]

What is the size of your serial numbers? The height?

Do M8 experts here think the font used is correct?

[Joe DeMarco]

Hi Serge

>I have owned the M8: 6502 RN: USA 6039405...My brother also has an M8: 5798 RN: 6038701

Did you find both the Ordnance Serial Number stamped on and the USA Registration Number painted on your M8 as well as on your brother's?

As best I can tell from "counting heads," M8s from Serial Number 6 thru SN 6907 used the key number "6032224."
From SN 6908 thru about SN 9008 the key number was "6032903."

That is why I think Leigh's would have been 6975 + 6032903 = USA 6039878.
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure yours should be 6502 + 6032224 = USA 6038726.
And your brother's should be 5798 + 6032224 = USA 6038022.

I reckon SN 5798 would have been made at the Ford plant in St. Paul in Dec. 1943 and yours and Leigh's in Jan. 1944.
Did you ever notice another number stamped right about in the middle of the glacis?
I think it might be the Ford MFR's serial number and might represent a loose build sequence number.
If I've done the math correctly, SN 5798 would have been the 2897th M8 built at St. Paul, and the "other number" should be something in that neighborhood, plus or minus.

Leigh, if you can talk to the people removing the paint, suggest that you suggest that they stop and take photos if they expose any painted on stuff under the top paint layers, like a name, the USA Registration Number, unit tactical markings, shipping code and so on.
Otherwise, the history gets lost.

Joe DeMarco

[Rakkasan187]

Good morning Joe,

The LRC here at Ft Bliss is in the needle scaling process right now and they have been instructed to let us know if they find any other markings. They also take very detailed photos of the entire process from the moment the vehicle arrives at their facility through the whole process.

I will also get the measurements of the numbers that were found (6975) for those interested.

The LRC recently completed a halftrack project for us, and they were able to find bumper number information as well as the USA number and tactical markings for the 6th Armored Infantry, so they have been doing a great job in helping us fill in some gaps on information that had been missing in the records for many years. With this information I can update the historical property jackets and if the vehicle gets transferred to another Army Museum, the history will remain intact.

I can tell you that many of the vehicles that we have in our collection came from a number of sources when the 1st Armored Division was in Germany. Some of the vehicles came from other museums in Europe as trade agreements under Title 10 and others came to the museum when the 3rd Armored Division deactivated, and the units were reflagged and reabsorbed into the 1st AD. The large portion of the collection are "examples of" vehicles that were used by division assets through the years. Since the arrival of the World Wide Web (www) we have been able to reach out and conduct research on serial numbers, USA numbers and finally put the puzzle pieces together to add provenance to vehicles. Some remarkable efforts by armor and vehicle enthusiasts have been instrumental in helping us find provenance to some of our vehicles and their willingness to share that information with us is amazing and personnaly I cant wait to share this with everyone in the form of restored vehciles and armor.

My goal as the museum curator is to get as much historical data for each piece of equipment in order to properly educate and inform the patrons who visit the museum. This may take many years as in some cases the data plates and other information is missing but I am encouraged when we are able to share the information and photos with the forums.

Thank you all again for the information and knowlege shared.

I will continue to update as we get information back from the LRC.

Best regards everyone, stay safe

Leigh

[Joe DeMarco]

>The LRC recently completed a halftrack project for us, and they were able to find bumper number information as well as the USA number and tactical markings for the 6th Armored Infantry

I like to record that kind of info if you care to share it, Leigh.

>I will also get the measurements of the numbers that were found (6975) for those interested.

John. N. might be thinking that your number stamping is fake or a restamp.
In the photo you posted, the number might also be stamped in the upper right of the picture, which seems more like where St. Paul stamped it originally.
According to a Ford Memo dated Sept. 1943 the Ordnance Serial Number was stamped "on the four corners of the hull and underneath the name plate." [dataplate?]
So you might check on both sides in the back and on the inside wall where the dataplate is/was.
If your guys reveal the USA Number while paint stripping, assuming it's real, you can derive the Ord SN mathematically.

Earlier you wrote about a period photo of an 81st Recon M8 with maybe USA 6-0-3-2-2-?-2.
Would it be possible to post the photo?
That seems a bit too low (or early) for an M8 overseas.

Joe

[Rakkasan187]

Joe,

Here are some of the images that I spoke of.

Members of the 1st Special Service Force (General Robert Frederick, Commander FSSF standing with hands on hips) on top of an M8 of the 81st Recon Battalion, 1st Armored Division preparing for the Cerreto Alto Raid on 15 April 1944. The name of this M8 we believe is "Black Magic" and the image of a rabbit being pulled from a top hat is on the driver's side above the left front wheel. The USA number looks to be 60322 ?? 2.

I will get the information you requested on the halftrack Joe and send it out in the halftrack forum

Leigh

thumbnail_IMG_1642 2.jpg (8.89 KiB) Viewed 528 times

[Tuareg]

Thanks for sharing the photos