Metal detecting for M3 Lee parts on the Eastern Front

[FGM148]

Hi guys!

My name is Karlis, I come from Latvia (former WW2 Eastern Front) and my favorite hobby is WW2 metal detecting.

Recently in a forest by my house i discovered a place where a Soviet M3 Lee tank blew up and its full of small and huge parts of an M3 Lee tank. I have already found rubber pads from the tracks, M72 75mm AP shells, M51 37mm AP shells and ,believe ir or not, a plaque with the tanks serial number!

If you could help me ID these parts it would be awesome and there’s still a huge amount of signals left so I will probably be posting more parts. Thank you!

Oh, and what does R.Z.C. exactly mean?

Pics are here: https://imgur.com/a/ByZ69

[tankbarrell]

The RZC are the initials of the Ordnance Department Inspector for the Detroit area. Col. R Z Crane was Ordnance chief from June 1938 to June 1942.

[FGM148]

Can anyone give me more info on this M3 Lee? The serial number on the data plate i found is #3882. It would be interesting for me to find out when it was produced and sent to the Soviet Union.

Thanks!

[pdqf]

If breech ring & Block is their see if operator handle has Brass parts on it? pdqf515-442-3126

[DDTrustee]

MY 2 cents worth
Picture 3 piece of the run ring (MG on top on a trolley
Picture 6 the switch plate for the gyroscopic stabilizer for the 37mm gun (on-off)
Picture 7 brass piece at bottom – part of the round gun elevating ring for the 37mm gun mount
Picture 8 close up of same thing as bottom of Pic 7
Picture 13 data plate for the M3 nice find!!!!!

[Joe DeMarco]

Hi Karlis

What an amazing find!
SN 3882 would have been built by Chrysler at the Detroit Tank Arsenal in June, 1942.
It would have been assigned the Registration Number USA 3010517.
Unlike the British, French and US Marines, who painted it out, the Soviets identified their Lend Lease AFVs by the Registration Number.
In most cases on M3 Lees, it was painted on in blue drab.
I don't have an historical listing for SN 3882, but quite a few of the Chrysler June production Lees were shipped to the Soviets, and arrived in a "northern port" (Murmansk, Archangel?) in November, 1942.

I would assume this tank would have entered combat months later in 1943.
Do you have any idea of the battle that would have taken place in the forest near your house?

>RZC are the initials of the Ordnance Department Inspector for the Detroit area. Col. R Z Crane was Ordnance chief from June 1938 to June 1942.

Adrian, that's a great bit of minutia. How did you learn about Col. Crane?
Someone once asked about a Lee dataplate that he bought on Ebay, IIRC.
It was from an earlier production (1941) Chrysler Lee, SN 489.
That has the initials "HWR" stamped in the box in the lower right.
Any idea of who that was?
Any idea whose initials were on your Sherman's dataplate?

Joe

[FGM148]

Hi Joe,

Thank you so much for the info! I know that the 24th Tank Brigade participated in battles near my house (village of Turkalne) during the 7th of October 1944 ,under the command of the 10th Guards Army, 2nd Baltic Front.
They mostly operated M3 Lees ,but also had some T-34’s.

They suffered heavy losses but managed to drive the Germans away from Turkalne and then with the help of the 8th Guards Infantry Division advanced to the city of Ogre. Riga was captured in 17th October.

The M3 Lee that blew up in my forest was most probably destroyed by a nasty Pzgr 39 shell fired from the PaK 40 because I found a base-detonating fuse from that shell that had detonated close to a piece of armor of the M3 Lee i found. I have found a lot of personal items of the tank crew which is very sad ,including a cap badge.

An interesting thing that i found was an Italian WW2 canteen that was probably taken as a trophy by the tank crew when they were near Stalingrad where the Italians fought.

D4732026-E302-48F8-90DA-C2361D6BB1B9.jpeg (115.96 KiB) Viewed 3011 times

[FGM148]

MY 2 cents worth
Picture 3 piece of the run ring (MG on top on a trolley
Picture 6 the switch plate for the gyroscopic stabilizer for the 37mm gun (on-off)
Picture 7 brass piece at bottom – part of the round gun elevating ring for the 37mm gun mount
Picture 8 close up of same thing as bottom of Pic 7
Picture 13 data plate for the M3 nice find!!!!!

Thank you!

Here is another amazing find. The periscope mount! Had a hard time getting this thing out (60kg).

[FGM148]

If breech ring & Block is their see if operator handle has Brass parts on it? pdqf515-442-3126

Hi, could you please give me an example of what the breech ring, block and operator handle look like because i still have a ton of parts I can’t ID.

Thanks!

[tankbarrell]

>RZC are the initials of the Ordnance Department Inspector for the Detroit area. Col. R Z Crane was Ordnance chief from June 1938 to June 1942.

Adrian, that's a great bit of minutia. How did you learn about Col. Crane?
Someone once asked about a Lee dataplate that he bought on Ebay, IIRC.
It was from an earlier production (1941) Chrysler Lee, SN 489.
That has the initials "HWR" stamped in the box in the lower right.
Any idea of who that was?
Any idea whose initials were on your Sherman's dataplate?

Joe

Hi Joe,

this info came via Marco Hogencamp on MLU. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showt ... ight=crane

Mine had ABQ, Brig. Gen. A B Quinton Jr.

No mention of HWR there but Marco might have it, interestingly, his information lists Crane holding the post until Quinton took over, spanning 1938 to the end of the war. Possibly a deputy?

[Joe DeMarco]

Hi Karlis
Thanks for the history lesson.
I like to record info about "surviving" Shermans/variants.
How about something like...

3882 M3 Lee BtB (Believed to Be) 24th Tank Brigade, 10th Guards Army, 2nd Baltic Front, KO'd near Turkalne, Latvia, ca. Oct. 1944. (Karlis)

It is my impression from your post that this Lee was blown to smithereens (small bits)?
That generally did not happen unless it was on purpose, like by an after the battle demolition team to deny recovery to the enemy, or perhap later to facilitate metal salvage? Any ideas about that?

Some correspondents have been sharing entries from Soviet records. Here's the closest one to SN 3882...

3849 Listed in service with Soviet 41st Tank Brigade, 5th Tank Corps, July-Aug 1944, Turret No. 453, Engine No.126698


Hi Adrian,

Will be pleased to add this additional historical info to our dataplate page, with credit to Marco.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minu ... lates.html

>Mine had ABQ, Brig. Gen. A B Quinton Jr.
>No mention of HWR there but Marco might have it, interestingly, his information lists Crane holding the post until Quinton took over, spanning >1938 to the end of the war. Possibly a deputy?

Well, "ABQ" is stamped on the dataplate of M3 Lee SN 4207, another June, 1942 production, and his initials are seen on Chrysler & Fisher (Detroit area builders) dataplates through to the end of production in mid 1945.

Am really enjoying this post, gents!

Joe

[FGM148]

Hi Karlis
Thanks for the history lesson.
I like to record info about "surviving" Shermans/variants.
How about something like...

3882 M3 Lee BtB (Believed to Be) 24th Tank Brigade, 10th Guards Army, 2nd Baltic Front, KO'd near Turkalne, Latvia, ca. Oct. 1944. (Karlis)

It is my impression from your post that this Lee was blown to smithereens (small bits)?
That generally did not happen unless it was on purpose, like by an after the battle demolition team to deny recovery to the enemy, or perhap later to facilitate metal salvage? Any ideas about that?

Some correspondents have been sharing entries from Soviet records. Here's the closest one to SN 3882...

3849 Listed in service with Soviet 41st Tank Brigade, 5th Tank Corps, July-Aug 1944, Turret No. 453, Engine No.126698


Hi Adrian,

Will be pleased to add this additional historical info to our dataplate page, with credit to Marco.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minu ... lates.html

>Mine had ABQ, Brig. Gen. A B Quinton Jr.
>No mention of HWR there but Marco might have it, interestingly, his information lists Crane holding the post until Quinton took over, spanning >1938 to the end of the war. Possibly a deputy?

Well, "ABQ" is stamped on the dataplate of M3 Lee SN 4207, another June, 1942 production, and his initials are seen on Chrysler & Fisher (Detroit area builders) dataplates through to the end of production in mid 1945.

Am really enjoying this post, gents!

Joe

Hi Joe,

I am pretty sure that this M3 Lee was blown up as a result of AT gun fire because I have found bones and personal items of the crew and as we all know ,M3 Lees frequently exploded upon penetration of a larger caliber shell since they had a lot of ammo with them. I think that when the M3 Lee was hit ,all of the hatches and armor plates burst open from the internal explosion. The armor plates probably got shattered and flew off since they were attached with rivets. According to the residents of my village the destroyed tanks sat in the forest for a long time until a team of engineers cleared the tanks of UXO and towed them away.

Im 99% sure that it was the 24th TBr that was by my house ,because according to the situation report of the 5th Tank Corps on the 7th of October 1944 ,the brigade's tanks passed by my house and advanced to the Maza Jugla river. The 5th Tank Corps(which the 24th ,41st and 70th TBr were in) was under direct command of the 2nd Baltic Front but operated in the area of the 10th Guards Army. Here's a quote from the situation report:

24 TBr with a forward detachment reached Maza Jugla River at Stradini, Turkalne by 7.00 7 October. Further advance was checked by an absence of a bridge over Maza Jugla and direct fire of guns from the southern edge of forest north of Kashchuki, southern edge of Godyni, point 51.6 and two self-propelled guns from Kashchuki. After suffering losses in personnel and materiel the forward detachment retreated to Sturishi, Jaunsturishi and together with the brigade's main forces started a firefight with enemy. During the day the brigade conducted a firefight and reconnaissance.
Losses [from evening 6.10.44 to evening 7.10.44] - 7 M3 medium destroyed, 2 T-34 and 1 T-70 damaged. 10 men killed and 28 wounded, including brigade's deputy commander lieutenant colonel Galant.
Operational tanks: 7 T-34, 1 T-70, 2 M3 medium, 4 SU-76.

A more precise record would be: 3882 M3 Lee 24th Tank Brigade, 5th Tank Corps, 2nd Baltic Front, KO'd near Turkalne, Latvia, ca. 7th Oct. 1944.
And do you know the exact modification of the June 1942 Lees?

Thanks.

[Joe DeMarco]

>And do you know the exact modification of the June 1942 Lees?

Well, not exact, but just from "counting heads" of Chrysler Lees with known good Serial and/or USA Numbers, I would say that 3882 probably would have been built with the 3 ventilators ( 1 on turret, 2 on hull roof). These appear to have been introduced in May, with the transition completed in June. (If you find any evidence of vents, I would want to add that to my notes.) As best I can determine, the side doors weren't eliminated until starting in July, 1942, so 3882 likely still had them. The Soviets were not happy about the elimination of the doors (replaced with escape hatch in belly plate), and were very brusque & undiplomatic about it to US representatives. The exhaust set up has been hard to pin down. I doubt if 3882 would have been shipped with the original pepperpot exhaust. Would guess it had the "Quick Fix" exhaust where it retained the big air cleaner inside the engine compartment, but had the fishtail exhaust pipes on either side of the engine access doors. If you were to report finding evidence of the Vortox external air cleaners like on M4/M4A1 Shermans, then I would guess they might have been added at a Tank Depot in the US before shipment. 3882 would have been built with the pressed metal type road wheels, not the welded spoke ones you will find on earlier Chryslers & all of the other makers' Lees & Grants. If you were to find any of the bogie body castings (Part No. D37893), they might have dates on them, most likely a few months before June, 1942, in the format "4-42."

I sincerely hope that the casualties from that tank have all been accounted for.

Joe

[FGM148]

>And do you know the exact modification of the June 1942 Lees?

Well, not exact, but just from "counting heads" of Chrysler Lees with known good Serial and/or USA Numbers, I would say that 3882 probably would have been built with the 3 ventilators ( 1 on turret, 2 on hull roof). These appear to have been introduced in May, with the transition completed in June. (If you find any evidence of vents, I would want to add that to my notes.) As best I can determine, the side doors weren't eliminated until starting in July, 1942, so 3882 likely still had them. The Soviets were not happy about the elimination of the doors (replaced with escape hatch in belly plate), and were very brusque & undiplomatic about it to US representatives. The exhaust set up has been hard to pin down. I doubt if 3882 would have been shipped with the original pepperpot exhaust. Would guess it had the "Quick Fix" exhaust where it retained the big air cleaner inside the engine compartment, but had the fishtail exhaust pipes on either side of the engine access doors. If you were to report finding evidence of the Vortox external air cleaners like on M4/M4A1 Shermans, then I would guess they might have been added at a Tank Depot in the US before shipment. 3882 would have been built with the pressed metal type road wheels, not the welded spoke ones you will find on earlier Chryslers & all of the other makers' Lees & Grants. If you were to find any of the bogie body castings (Part No. D37893), they might have dates on them, most likely a few months before June, 1942, in the format "4-42."

I sincerely hope that the casualties from that tank have all been accounted for.

Joe

The few remains that I have found have been transfered to the “Legenda” organization that buries Red Army soldiers in Latvia. It would be impossible for me to identify each crew member as the remains were scattered around but I am sure that the KIA’s have all been accounted for in Soviet documents as the year was 1944 and tank crew losses were evident. I am afraid that the situation report has false information of the number of KIA’s corresponding to the number of tanks destroyed.

Thanks.

[FGM148]

Hi everyone, I just found this angle measuring instrument. Someone told me that it’s from the horizontal drive of a cannon. Is it from the 37mm or the 75mm gun of the M3 Lee? Here’s the photo: https://imgur.com/a/jCt6J4y

Thanks.