Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Ships, Boats, Small Craft, Patrol Craft, Landing Craft, Amphibious Tracked Military Vehicles, Wanted, For Sale (NO AUCTION or EBAY) and Knowledge Base
D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:13 pm

Today the gears were turning in the ole noggin Gents. I have an idea for Bogie wheels that may just turn out to a good one. Bogie Wheels are becoming expensive. I've seen them as much as $80.00 U.S. each, but no lower than $50.00. I had tremendous luck with 2 part Polyurethane rubber in the past. So I took out my Jig Saw and cut the original rubber away from the steel on one of my spare and damaged wheels.
Image
Image

All that is needed is to clean the rest of the rubber from the steel, build a small mold, mix the rubber with black pigment and pour it in. The resultant hardness of the mixed rubber is right up there with natural rubber. Since the wheel is just turning, the Polyurethane will stay in place for quite some time. This would be a pretty good fix for guys who don't have spares.
Image
Image
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

DIYJ
G-Corporal
G-Corporal
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:39 pm

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by DIYJ » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:53 am

This is very interesting. Looking forward to the results.
1943 T24 Weasel

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:02 pm

I just found a materials company near me that specializes in many different types of mold making compounds AND 2 part Polyurethane Rubber. Gonna pay 'em a visit in the next few days and see what they offer.
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:22 pm

Well Gents, I have made good headway on this experiment. I was able to rebuild a bogie wheel, this is how I did it.

I didn't want to take the bogie off the cluster and lose all the parts that comprise a complete axle. I used a loose wheel instead. The tire had been gouged up by something so it was a good candidate for the experiment. An aggressive blade in the Jigsaw and three minutes saw the rubber fall away from the steel.
Image

I trimmed the remnants of the rubber away with the saw, then cleaned this surface off with the wire wheel on my bench grinder and roughed the surface with my 4 1/2" angle grinder so the Polyurethane would be able to get "good tooth" on the steel.
Image

I measured the old rubber to be approx. 7 7/8 inches in diameter. A non stick spring form cake pan was to be the mold. Here I have trimmed the center of the bottom of the pan to fit under the steel where the rubber will be poured.
Image

I taped the joint and installed the pan onto the base.
Image

I chose a hardness of 60 for the new rubber. It isn't too hard when fully cured, but may be too soft in the end. We shall see. All of the aforementioned work was performed on Saturday. The temps. have dipped a bit at night here, so the normal 16 hour cure time has been extended a bit.
Image

I was able to free the mold from the rubber and here we have a freshly rebonded bogie wheel. The O. D. is just about 8 1/8 inches, but I'm thinking the additional 1/4 inch in diameter won't make a big difference in the end.
Image

The big thing is to get the bottom of the cake pan out from under the new rubber. At this hour of the experiment, the rubber is still a bit sticky to the touch. So, I'm going to wait until the end of today before I attempt to remove it. The pan was a bit tough to peel away from the rubber. Perhaps because the rubber hasn't fully cured yet. So, a few more hours in the sun, and I'll try then.
Image

So far and over all I'm deeming this a success. The 2 part Polyurethane rubber can be found anywhere across the nation. The kit I used was just under 32 ounces and cost $38.00. The black pigment was about $6.00 and the springform pan was $12.00. I am out of pocket so far about $60.00 and still have enough to mold one more wheel. I have seen N.O.S. bogie wheels on Ebay for $50.00 and $79.95 each. So I don't know which is the lesser of two evils, but I had fun doing this exercise and certainly wouldn't mind running these rebuilt wheels on my Weasel.

Thanks for looking.
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

Pasturepilot1
G-Sergeant
G-Sergeant
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:07 am

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by Pasturepilot1 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:16 pm

Very interesting, keep us informed with results.


D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:15 pm

I had a very hard time removing the bottom of the pan due to its' rough surface. The new rubber on the bogie wheel is quite soft as I suspected it to be earlier in thread. But when it comes to R & D, many avenues of approach need to explored. The bogie wheel has now has about 55 hours of cure time and has stabilized.
The next step is to destroy the rubber in order to find out how well it adhered to the steel and how well it maintains its' uniform integrity. I have a second wheel that is curing at this time. I was unable to reuse the pan bottom because it was destroyed when I removed it, so I attempted a different method for the mold. Stand by for more photos and info later.
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:01 pm

Here are the photos of the destruction of the bogie wheel. I learned quite a little bit about the interaction between the Polyurethane and Steel.

Here we can see where the pan bottom was and how it peeled away from the rubber. Not good. It is taking great effort to bend the rubber like this, so kind of a good start.
Image

It was difficult to peel the rubber to here, but when I did I heard some pops like small balloons popping. You can see where the rubber was held away from the steel by air pockets. This tells me that I need to use something to "tool" the rubber in liquid form onto the steel so it will adhere evenly. It took a bit of effort to peel the rubber back with both of my thumbs.
Image
Image

I wanted find out how hard it would be to tear the rubber away from the steel, and it took some effort. #60 hardness seems to be too soft and not completely cured. We can see how the rubber tore away from itself but remained adhered to the steel. This looks promising.
Image

This photo tells me that after roughing up the steel, two things need to happen. One, the surface needs to be cleaned with denatured alcohol. Two, the rubber needs to be tooled onto the steel while it is still in liquid form. Even though it took moderate effort to peel the rubber back like this, I was still able to.
Image

My mold was obviously not "liquid tight". I lost some rubber due to leakage. I had a harder time peeling this rubber out of the bogie wheel because I had fired up my M-41 Tent Heater and placed the Bogie Wheel on it to heat the steel. This is another discovery in which warmer steel will cause better adherence.
Image

In this last photo, I had taken the rubber in both my hands with my thumbs and index fingers touching. I brought my hands up to my chin and pulled my hands apart in an attempt to break the rubber. It took a tremendous amount of effort, the rubber stretched about an inch, resisted then broke. This Polyurethane Rubber is tough stuff. The way it broke tells me that the mixture was thorough and complete, devoid of air bubbles and has great tensile strength.
Image

To sum up, I suspect that the rubber was not fully cured due to the cooler weather and that #60 hardness is too soft. I went back to the supplier today to discuss my findings and took the bogie wheel with me (before I tore it apart). After discussing things with the owner, We both decided that #80 hardness is what is needed to make this project a complete success. I'll try again later in the week when they receive a new shipment.
I am certain that the harder rubber will net better success.

Thanks for looking. :)
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

User avatar
W. Winget
LTC, U.S. Army
LTC, U.S. Army
Posts: 2904
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:37 pm
Location: USA, Virginia, Carrollton
Contact:

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by W. Winget » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:50 pm

Somewhere I downloaded the M113 boggie wheel production analysis/experiment the US Army made in the 70's on using Urethane, I can e-mail it to you. "TECHNICAL REPORT NO. 12092 DEVELOPMENT OF URETHANE ROADWHEEL TIRES I WITH EMPHASIS ON METHOD OF BONDING" (They also NOW have the ACE (Armored Combat Engineer) vehicle utilizing urethane replacement boggies, of which I asked the factory and basically got no real reply on possibly having them do it.

I speak with some research, as the Liberty Tires I need are $2000 each for re-rubbering...and I have pondered this for many years.

What I came up with was #85 hardness, pulled in a vacuum pot to remove internal bubbles, and then poured and heat cured at something like 163 degrees for 16 hours for full cure (from memory) for best results.

Now a couple of problems for me doing this other than about $800 in material for each wheel x 6....and the sheer size of them 40" x 7" x 5"and $$$ risk when trying all that...
I'll dig for some articles for you. I bought enough weasel boggies for my own resupply a few years back, need tracks redone on two Weasels though.
V/R W Winget

Edit: found this note on one other possibility I was thinking of:

80 Shore A hardness (skate board wheels) M3180 REV 1 A/B
Working time of 15-20 minutes
(Cures best with about 200 degree heat overnight)
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

pintelhook11over
G-Major
G-Major
Posts: 890
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:45 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by pintelhook11over » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:41 pm

This is an outstanding experiment, that is a decent amount of bogie wheels to re-rubber, but with some more practice it seems to be feasible. then it could be set up on a spindle and use a "Hot Wire" to cut off the excess flashing and make it look more uniform circumference and beveled edges.

I was watching a few clips on M2 "Cletrac" tracks and making automotive tires and they were uncured rubber that was baked. So if it cures to the right hardness I would say it is serviceable. Of course now that I am trying to find the Vendor that listed them, I cant find it.

I saw a cool "How its made" video about making hydraulic hoses, they wrapped a roll of rubber onto a long mandrel that was like 30 foot long or more then they layered the materials they wanted and then baked it and slid the mandrel out of the hose and Viola! a roll of hose! So heat may be a good curing addition and maybe vibration to settle the bubbles. But a Bell chamber with vacuum is pretty good too.

Some of the little Caterpillar skid steers at my work have plastic wheels with rubber on the outer edge I believe, they can't be baking them too hot if they are plastic rims, but I don't recall if the outer ring is rubber or polyurethane...I'll have to bug the Technical coordinators upstairs that talk to Caterpillar engineers to see how they do it. I recall Caterpillar bought out ASV a while ago and they had a good long lasting rubber track setup.

I see alot of aftermarket bogie wheels too, it can't be too complex of a process could it? Where there is a will there is a way!

The big test if you ask me will be hard turning to see if the material stays bonded to the rim, but the center guide may help with the lateral sheering loads...

There are definitely a lot more chemicals to experiment with now vs. 1942

https://parts.cat.com/en/catcorp/278-1301
1942 G7117 No. 389946
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by signsup » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:17 pm

I'm no chemist, but in woodworking, when using poly, the poly should be very slowly stirred to mix. Any agitation or quick stirring will result in air bubbles. So on your next batch, mix your two parts very slowly with little air infusion.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:31 pm

Thanks guys for the input, Col. Winget, Pintelhook and Signsup.
After doing some more research, I have decided that there are some other steps that are beneficial to the proper curing of the Polyurethane. Col. Winget sent me a study performed on M113 wheels and Poly which led me to want to adapt an additional piece of equipment to the clean Bogie wheel before pouring the rubber. I want to perfect the mold so that a more accurate replication of the original rubber can be duplicated.
I am curious to how available original Bogie wheels are, does anyone have any idea??
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

pintelhook11over
G-Major
G-Major
Posts: 890
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:45 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by pintelhook11over » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:50 pm

The newer skid steer undercarriage is rubber track with all steel bogie wheels, the earlier ones had the plastic or steel center hubs. The early 277 and 277B models had 2 thin bogie wheels on a hub resulting in a double groove set up, the later steel has a single steel bogie with 2 integral grooves to keep the track aligned better on the rubber track groups.

The individual bogie wheels had a really hard plastic on the steel body. It is very very hard plastic, the only example of something that is that hard Is White Poly plastic guides for conveyor tracks or some sort of sliding puck material for sliding across concrete

I got to poking around the shop and used parts department and saw these:

ImageImage
1942 G7117 No. 389946
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:43 pm

I have made some more forward movement on the bogey wheel R & D. The Research PDF that Col. Winget sent had some very specific additions to the M113 road wheel. It had some very demanding barrel tests that the wheels were subject to. It told of pressures around 2590 lbs. of weight against the drum, specific run times and how much heat the wheel and track would generate. BUT, this is for the M113. It is bigger, heavier vehicle and has greater requirements expected of the road wheels and tracks.
I'm doing R & D for a lightweight Weasel. So, requirement of the bogey wheels are a lot less stringent. I adopted some of the Report into my experiment and think that I am on the right track. One of the requirements was for Urethane Rubber with a Shore A Hardness of 80, (+2 to -5). Another was to heli-arc expanded aluminum to the mating surface of the M-113 road wheel, then pour the rubber.

This photo is of the 2nd. pour I did several days ago. It is another test pour that I destroyed. I tooled the liquid rubber onto the mating surface with my caulking knife then finished the pour. It had a different mold bottom, and was unacceptable. I tried to push the rubber from the steel with my thumbs like I had with the 1st. pour, but could not. I tried prying with a screwdriver, the rubber bent but would not tear. I had to start its' failure by cutting the rubber with a razor knife. I had great difficulty peeling it off the wheel, then when I tried to break the rubber by pulling it apart, I could not. Its' tensile strength was much greater than mine.
Image

Here I welded a 1 inch wide strip of expanded steel the mating surface, cleaned the slag and soot off, then bent the tops over. This will give the rubber more surface area on which to grab, reducing the the likelihood of delamination. I used cardboard as the bottom and backer rod cut in half to lift the edge of the cardboard bottom to mimic the original look of the wheel. I brushed in a light coating of release wax so the rubber wouldn't adhere to the cardboard.
Image

This rubber is Shore A Hardness #80. It requires a 2 to 1 mixture, and I was far less generous with the pigment. This pour required 15 Oz. of rubber and 15 small drops of pigment. The pot ime on this hardness is 20 minutes with a full cure time of 48 hours. After the wheel comes out of the mold, I will heat the new bogey wheel to 165 degrees Fahrenheit for 4 to 6 hours to increase over all cure and tensile strength of the rubber.
Image

Now, I do have ONE MORE idea to produce an exact reproduction. It'll require a bit more work, but that's for another day. Thanks for looking. :)
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:10 pm

Okaaay... With the refinements I implemented, I have been met with great success on the R & D of the project. I pulled the bogey from the mold and found that the hardness of the rubber is just right. I CAN'T budge it with my thumbs and I highly doubt that I will be able to peel the rubber away from the wheel because of the addition of the expanded steel.
I molded another wheel today and I refined some of the preparation processes. This second wheel will be better than the first, I'll have photos if it out of the mold tomorrow.
Image
Image

For the second wheel, I changed the "direction" of the expanded steel. That afforded me the ability to bend the top edge of the steel away from the wheel to get a more desirable result. The Urethane will flow around the expanded steel, which will provide a better bond area.
Image
Image
Image

I cut the backer rod 1/2 way through and worked it onto the edge of the guide portion of the wheel.
Image
Image

The backer rod is used to elevate the outside edge of the cardboard base to duplicate the angle of the original rubber. I used thin cardboard for the mold bottom.
Image
Image
Image

After the cardboard is inserted, the joints are taped together. Then mold is fitted and the gap between it and the cardboard is closed with tape. Parting wax is then carefully brushed onto the inside of mold. The rubber is then mixed, pigmented and poured. This time I was able to use less rubber, 13.50 ounces. I hope to reduce the rubber usage to around 12.25 ounces for the final experiment. As for it, I'll make an exact reproduction of the bogey wheel. The makers mark, date code and original parting lines will all be visible in the new rubber. Just a note for anyone who has their Weasel painted White, I have a surprise coming with a special Bogey Wheel. :)
As for this portion of my research, I am calling it a flying success... Thanks for looking.
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

D.R.H.
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: Evergreen State

Re: Bogie Wheel Inspection.

Post by D.R.H. » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:29 pm

So Gents, about 4 days has passed since I laid the mold up. The rubber has had time to cure and reach its' proper hardness. I want to thank Col. Winget again for the tabulated data report on the M-113 road wheel. Without the information in it, I strongly believe that the rubber will not stay on the steel wheel for a great length of time.

Here is the last photo of this series of my Bogey Wheel R&D. After I had removed the wheel from the mold, I found that there was a small fissure on the face of the rubber. I had scraped the inside of the mixing cup at the end of the pour and introduced a very small amount of the "A" part into the liquid. It wasn't mixed, so it didn't bond with the rest of the pour. I pushed it open, cleaned the fissure with some paper towel, made a tiny batch of rubber and smoothed it into the fissure with my caulking knife. I massaged the wheel with my thumbs, working the fresh liquid into the rubber. I smoothed the side of the wheel and let it cure.
Today I inspected the repair and it is 100%. Here we can see that I have started working on another wheel as well. I will be taking the new approach from here on forward.
Image...

I like what my buddy Pintelhook11over suggested about the hot wire. Using one would make these two wheels look more original, Thanks Jonesy!!
In Loving Memoriam: George R. Hancock. 20 Mar. 1938 - 11 Jan. 2017. U.S.A.F. 1956 - 1962. R.I.P. Dad.

Post Reply

Return to “Boats, Ships, Landing Craft, and Tracked amphibian”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests