Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Ships, Boats, Small Craft, Patrol Craft, Landing Craft, Amphibious Tracked Military Vehicles, Wanted, For Sale (NO AUCTION or EBAY) and Knowledge Base
Post Reply
User avatar
W. Winget
LTC, U.S. Army
LTC, U.S. Army
Posts: 2904
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:37 pm
Location: USA, Virginia, Carrollton
Contact:

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by W. Winget » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:54 am

Before committing to anything, discussion should also focus on alternative means:
Kevlar Belts (I'm looking at flat belts, but no reason a large HVAC drive line belt system might not have something equivalent)
Nylon flat belts or lift loops (made in various sizes, these might even be spec'd to the proper length and factory sewn)

- No reason to span three rivets if two would do if the belt will hold and not slip as there is no wheel riding upon it.
Just tossing it out there while were discussing things, there must be more modern methods to skin this cat.
V/R W Winget

Kevlar belting for aluminum extrusion machines (China)
Image

Conveyor belting with Kevlar reinforcement:
Image

Belts for bucket lift systems:
Image
http://www.go4b.com/usa/products/beltin ... elting.asp

Goodyear flat belting
Image
https://www.rainbowprecisionproducts.com/gy-spec-flat

Another company that can handle "ALL" belting needs...(translate to $$$) but might be worth an e-mail.
http://www.baldwinsupply.com/about/comp ... le/Belting

Old Boat Yard or construction company lift sling material?
Here's new stuff, by length.
https://www.uscargocontrol.com/Nylon-Li ... long-1-ply
Image

And finally here's black boat lift sling sold on Amazon.
Image
4", 6", 8" sold by length up to 18'
https://www.amazon.com/d/Boating-Suppli ... B01GKYR9US

Or just black 5K rated ratchet strap material?
Image
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

ozm29c
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:40 am

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by ozm29c » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:36 pm

Here is an important dimension that may help. You will note that the thickness of the Norwegian inner band is 24mm which converts to the old imperial dimension of 15/16 to 61/64ths inches
Attachments
nordoc09.jpg
nordoc09.jpg (39.69 KiB) Viewed 1453 times
GPW 135997
M29C 7333
M29C 4338

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:43 pm

So, if current OE late production wide tracks took an inner belt of 3/4" and not 1", does this mean the new Norweigan bands will be too tall and affect timing and spacing?

I spoke to someone at length today about making new bands and the steel wire subject came up and I mentioned Kevlar in the rubber instead of steel wire and I could hear the wheels spinning. Yes, modern technology may provide some new options.

I had not thought of the fabric material instead of belting because in my mind I'm picturing it being too flexible and not rigid enough to keep the grousers from torqueing. But I guess the opposite side mesh would be pulled taucht and keep the flexing to a minimum. I was also thinking of rubber belting sandwiching some sort of fabric material, like Kevlar.

I was also reminded today that the original narrower tracks only had the two inner bands and that the outer bands wre added on the 20" grousers, so they do not affect the suspension of the weasel, but only provide additional torque or twisting of the grouser. So keeping the inner bands intact if possible and replacing the outer bands with some sort of belting or fabric makes sense to me.

But, I am often wrong . . just ask my wife.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

ozm29c
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:40 am

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by ozm29c » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:50 pm

This is how Consolidated Industries modified OEM tracks
Attachments
PAGE3.JPG
PAGE3.JPG (97.52 KiB) Viewed 1442 times
GPW 135997
M29C 7333
M29C 4338

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:46 pm

OK, so I got my broken track ban aid on. 10 ft of 60 roller chain cut into 4 sections of 30" each and spread over six grousers with the break in the middle. Removed inner rivets of cleats on outer band and out rivet on inner bans so not to mess with the tooth rivets. Very tight and secure, we feel to get it around the shop and on and off the trailer. Then work on the tracks can really begin.

But, I have to get this track on the weasel. I do not have any special weasel tools, but have most shade tree mechanic tools such as floor jacks, bottle jacks, jack stands, ramps, etc.

Any "tricks" to getting a track back on?

Thanks in advance.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer


User avatar
W. Winget
LTC, U.S. Army
LTC, U.S. Army
Posts: 2904
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:37 pm
Location: USA, Virginia, Carrollton
Contact:

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by W. Winget » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:45 pm

1st "I have not done it"
Knowing the track jack device hung on the outer wall of the cargo body, which then connected to the boggies to lift them, thereby reducing the radius of the track, I can only speculate a way ahead (of course reading the manual might work too)
Jacking the body up and placing it on stands,...
If one track jack adapter was all they used, wouldn't multiple modern ratchet straps placed at each boggie to the bed edge then tightened accomplish this in a more efficient manner? in essence using a few more straps lifts all the boggies up reducing it enough to slide the bottom track off the rollers, then release the tension and remove it from the top.
I'm sure there is a simple enough solution, which likely includes loosening the track tensioner assembly as a start. Wish I had the manual handy to help, but it would be another day.
V/R W Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 pm

So I talked to Brian Carol who is Caroltech. Basically, a guy in his garage. Started to work on weasel bands about 8 years ago and came up with something close and wanted to get OE grousers reproduced and offer an entire set of reproduction tracks that would resemble Oe tracks much closer than the current Liberty restoration tracks.
Apparently, some weasel owners ponied up some research and development funds and there was some sort of connection between Mr. Carol and Libery restoration and it didn't end well.
The bands were never more than a prototype and that is where they died. Caroltech is moving on to other rebber track repairs and is not currently working on anything related to the weasel.

Maybe someday in the future.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

User avatar
W. Winget
LTC, U.S. Army
LTC, U.S. Army
Posts: 2904
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:37 pm
Location: USA, Virginia, Carrollton
Contact:

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by W. Winget » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:50 am

Somewhere in the past 20 years I saw a green colored copy (jpg scan) of an authorized track fix? that showed using a 5/16 to 1/2"" cable run through wire rope clips (U-bolts) that went through the edge of the grouser and pulled the cable down (I think without the "saddle" portion being used). I also think it was two u-bolts per shoe and I suppose stainless would be the best solution for the cable, but done once it would be easy to replace the cable if damaged/worn as these are off the shelf common hardware items.
V/R W Winget
Image

Here a 1 x 2-1/4" long is $150 per 100 zinc plated #19630 at BoltDepot.com for a better example (Why buy a saddle to throw it away)
Image
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:04 pm

So, let's flesh this out a little. The outer band clips are 1/2" tall and approx. 1 3/8" wide at the opening and taper up to about 3/4 " . So, to fill the cabity of the clip solidly with one cable would be tough. If you used 1/2" wire cable, you'd be strong enough (23,000 libs brake strength) vs. just rubber or rubber reinforced Kevlar or nylon strap.

So, even if you had to make a gazillion custom clips to hold the 1/2" cable in place using the OE clip holes and rivets or bolts, you'd have the same or better steel cable that was in the original. Just not encased in rubber.

I was thinking, even if I did layer rubber belting in the original clips and a layer of belting on top of the clips all glued together to look like OE bands, I'd coat the entire underside of the grousers with a liquid rubber type product to seal the new belting layers, clips, bolts and nuts for protection. And it would seal and fill any cracks in the OE inner bands.

So, maybe just make a gazillion wire clips to hold a steel cable and coat everything with liquied rubber. Make the clips a little undersized so that

when they are tightened, they really pinch the steel cable in place so no slippage from cleat to cleat.

Seems like a farily easy and affordable band aid, but probably a high maintainance fix as the exposed or poorly sealed steel cable would always need an eye kept on it.

If there was a way to use the original cleats so that it would hold the cable in place, that would really be an easy fix. But we are almost back to the roller chain band aid. Why not just directly bolt in 22 feet of roller chain on the outer edge of the grouser or replace the outer bands with roller chain using the original rivet holes.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

User avatar
W. Winget
LTC, U.S. Army
LTC, U.S. Army
Posts: 2904
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:37 pm
Location: USA, Virginia, Carrollton
Contact:

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by W. Winget » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:44 pm

Roller chain needs lube...park it for a while after running with no lube you will have dead chain links.
Germans used greased bearings in their tracks in WWII, constant maintenance. Russians come along with dry pin track, just replace pins or shoes when they wear, sloppy and noisy but cheap to make and maintain. (Actually have beater ramps to shove pins in on each pass on some tracks)
US develops rubber with octagon shaped bushings using octagon shaped track pins (not tanks, just BFV's, M113's, etc.) Fairly low maint and track 'wants' to go in circle as it is assembled on the octagon pin at a degree to go around a circle. (makes for fast and smooth track at the same time.)
Bottom Line, stainless cable should last for multiple years, and have the advantage of clips always being sold for possible future replacement when needed.
Just a thought.
W Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:27 am

And I understand that used elevator cable is a reduced expense option as I have read on winch cable discussions. I've got some monster cable on my G506 Chevy winch and I would be concerned about it's ability to flex enough around the front and rear curves and not want to push the grouser outward and off the sprocket and idler wheels. But certainly worth looking into some cable options. Perhaps a flat steel cable or a smaller diameter that would not resist flexing.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

User avatar
Dave 56
G-Sergeant Major
G-Sergeant Major
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:39 pm
Location: Shingle Springs, CA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by Dave 56 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:52 pm

Steel cable is available in a large variety of diameters, strength and stranding, made from everything from aluminum to stainless steel. It's usually called wire rope and is used for applications calling for strength and flexibility, like winch cable or guy wire, and is made up of multiple strands twisted to form the cable. Individual strands are usually twisted to form smaller cables which are in turn twisted together to form larger cables.

Using cable on Weasel track outside bands is not a new idea. The first design for Weasel 20" tracks used a single, rubber coated cable system for the outer bands, held in place with clamps. I have an example (a broken track section) of this type of track and also an example of the "heavy duty" track sold by Consolidated Industries in the late '50s and early 60's, shown in the ad posted by ozm29c. The Consolidated track used rubber banding on the outer bands held in place with a larger trapezoidal shaped, 4-rivet clamp, one on each outside end of the grouser.

The cable used on the original (first design) 20" tracks is 3/4" cable. The clamps used to secure it were riveted in place and had a 1-3/8" rivet spacing across the clamp (left to right across the grouser). The later style with the rectangular rubber outer bands (which have three small steel cables molded inside) have a 2-3/8" rivet spacing across the clamp. Some tracks, like my Consolidated Industries tracks, have an extra, unused rivet hole between the two outside rivets, where the original cable clamp was attached (evidence they were rebuilt using original, first design tracks). Here's a cross section from one of the original manuals:Image


So, if you wanted to use flexible cable (or wire rope) on the outer bands, 3/4" galvanized cable with many small individual strands (strength with flexibility) would be a good choice. Galvanized cable is rust resistant (and close to being rust-proof) but you could always spray it with flex-seal. Rated breaking strength for 3/4" cable is over 10,000 lbs. so strength is not a problem. You would need to use U-bolts for clamps to hold the cable in place, and might be able to use original rivet holes depending on existing holes in your grousers. You might end up drilling extra holes in the grouser to attach the U-bolts (don't worry about an extra hole or two, the strength reduction in the grouser is negligible). The biggest concern would be cable slippage but shouldn't be a problem if it's clamped tight enough, especially with two U-bolts per grouser where the cable is attached.

From a cost standpoint, cable and U-bolts could cost more than conveyor belting and standard bolts, but it could be relatively the same cost for either system. Studebaker probably determined it was cheaper to replace the outer band cable system with the rubber band system, assuming they got a good deal from BF Goodrich on the rubber bands (Goodrich was already making inner bands), so they revised the design. Who knows?

Dave
42 - 45 GPW and MB jeeps
43 CCKWs
43, 44 Ford GTBs
45 M29C Weasel
45 DUKW
42,43,44 G506 Chevys
46 CJ-2A, Ford 302

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:10 pm

Nothing to do with our scenario, but interesting that most other military vehicle applications were replacing rubber with felt, cork, steel tubes, etc. And the weasel tracks add a monster rubber band.

My question on the cable to grouser U bolt is that I presume the U shape is on the top of the cable and the two legs of the U bolt and the retaining strap are on the "road" side of the grouser. How would these nuts be protected out at the edge of the grousers and not protected by the rubber road pads. Are people who make this repair adding or enlarging the road pads.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

User avatar
Dave 56
G-Sergeant Major
G-Sergeant Major
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:39 pm
Location: Shingle Springs, CA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by Dave 56 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:53 pm

I've run nuts on the road side of the grousers and not experienced any damage to the nuts or bolts. The nuts on the road side of the grouser are protected by the steel ridge across the center of the grouser. They don't come in contact with the ground unless the ground is soft enough for the ridge to sink in, then they aren't damaged by the soft ground, or rocks and gravel either. The road pads are there to protect the grousers from wear when running on hard surface roads (and actually protect the road from the grousers), but even when the road pads are worn down I haven't seen much visible wear on the grouser ridge. The weight of the Weasel is distributed over the grousers in contact with the ground, so there is not much pressure on individual grousers, if that makes any sense.

Dave
42 - 45 GPW and MB jeeps
43 CCKWs
43, 44 Ford GTBs
45 M29C Weasel
45 DUKW
42,43,44 G506 Chevys
46 CJ-2A, Ford 302

signsup
G-Major General
G-Major General
Posts: 3393
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am
Location: Winston, GA

Re: Weasel tracks redeux 2019

Post by signsup » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:04 pm

Well, just got back from 10 day west coast parts swing and picked up my conveyor belting material for my planned track repair. Got enough 5/8" to do two layers adhered together, one under a cleat and one adhered on top of the bottom layer sandwiching the cleats, then bolting the new "bands" onto my outside band rivet holes. I'll leave the inner bands alone as they are not too bad. I will seal everything with flex seal or liquid rubber after installing my replacement outer bands. With 1 1/4" total height, they should look very similar to OE bands.
I also picked up enough 1/2" belting material to make replacement road pads. I will cut the first layer into two squares and adhere to the metal grouser on either side of the steel rib. Then another 1/2" piece over the two smaller pices to give me one large road pad and not having to split or cut a goove in the single pad to go over the steel bar like the originals. We'll see what happens.

Have an event end of April that I will just do the roller chain quick fix at my break to get me on and off the trailer. Then into the shop for frame off restoration of the weasel and do what I can with the tracks at that time.

Nothing else new that I can report at this time. I'll post photos before, during and after the process.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
A jeep, a truck, and a trailer

Post Reply

Return to “Boats, Ships, Landing Craft, and Tracked amphibian”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest