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440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:32 am
by pbr332
Since I've run across so many Willys Americar engines in MBs, I'm trying to put together a database and try to figure out roughly how many were made, and when. So, I'm asking anyone who has one, or access to one, could you tell me the stamped serial number on the machined pad, and the casting date?
Also, I've heard a number of MV collectors say that these were installed in MBs at the Willys factory. I find that extremely hard to believe. Yes, they're the same engines, built from the same parts, by the same guys, at the same time. The only difference is the stamped number. But I see no reason why new Americar 441 or 442 engines would be switched with MB stamped engines, just because it's convenient. If they needed more MB engines, the line supervisor would just have directed his people to stamp more engines with the correct MB number instead of a 442 number.

The best information I have access to says 440-41-42 series engines were never installed by the military, ever. But a lot were installed by civilians after the war. That only makes sense, especially considering the fact that the Willys sedans, coupes, wagons and pickups were the lightest full sized cars made in America, so they were made into hot rods at a much higher rate than the average American sedan (except the '32 Ford, of course). And the first thing to go would be the L134 engine.

My last question is, were MA engines stamped with an MA number? And if so, did those numbers start at MA 100001?

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:27 pm
by Bangle 99
There’s nothing in my current military experience that would tell me the military ever installed a civilian engine in a MB. Granted, current experience doesn’t equate to WWII, however, I know enough from the last 34 years that I’d strongly suggest it didn’t happen. Tools on the other hand are a different story. There are several times we’ve gone down to the hardware store and purchased every hammer and screwdriver in the place because we needed them for an upcoming inspection. So, all I have is anecdotal evidence against it.


V/R

James D Teel II
Retired Police Sergeant/Bomb Tech
SFC OKARNG
Edmond, Oklahoma
'43 Willys MB/ITM jeep
<><

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:47 pm
by sjalbert
MA engines were stamped MA. I don't know what number they started with. The factory only installed MA numbered engined in MA's and MB numbered engines in MB's. MB numbered engines also went into generators, water pumps and other engine powered items.

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:55 pm
by Alang
I have a 441- 67339. 4-2

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:14 pm
by Adam
Wonder why, with only 27000 americars made, thats the 441 and 442 designation, the engine numbers are so high. The engine was redesigned in 40, wonder if they carried the numbers back from 37
Just curious.

I have 441-7537x rest of info tomorrow

Adam

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:58 pm
by George Hollins
Here are Willys serial numbers I have researched from multiple sources. Serial numbers were in sequence 1939 through 1941.

1939 1001 – 16214 model 1939
1940 17000 – 49341 model 440
1941 50001 – 78400 model 441 1941 Americar
1941 78401 – 79900 model MA
1941 80101 – 85500 model 442 1942 Americar
1941 85501 – 85550 model MA
1941 85551 – 92020 model 442 1942 Americar
1941 100001 - 108878 model MB

George

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:03 am
by ajlang
George Hollins wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:58 pm
Here are Willys serial numbers I have researched from multiple sources. Serial numbers were in sequence 1939 through 1941.

1939 1001 – 16214 model 1939
1940 17000 – 49341 model 440
1941 50001 – 78400 model 441 1941 Americar
1941 78401 – 79900 model MA
1941 80101 – 85500 model 442 1942 Americar
1941 85501 – 85550 model MA
1941 85551 – 92020 model 442 1942 Americar
1941 100001 - 108878 model MB

George
Great info. Thanks George.
Andy

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:06 am
by Michael O.
I have a Model 39 block ser# 39-14209...if anyone wants it.

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:41 am
by TROYWILCOXSON
442-90216-I

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:24 am
by Fred Coldwell
pbr332 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:32 am
. . . My last question is, were MA engines stamped with an MA number? And if so, did those numbers start at MA 100001?
Hi Frank:

The picture below is from page 3 of the Willys-Overland factory Maintenance Manual for the MA, TM-10-1103, copyright 1941. It shows that MA engines were stamped with the "MA" model prefix and that MA engine serial numbers began at 78401, the same number as the beginning chassis serial number for the MA:

Image

A treasure trove of MA chassis and engine serial number data is found at pages 173 to 178 in Ray Cowdery's 1990 softcover book All-American Wonder, The Military Jeep 1941-1945, Volume Two. His book cites jeep delivery data from a United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA) report on the delivery of 108 surplus military jeeps in 1946 to Czechoslovakia via Trieste, Italy. Many of these jeeps were MAs that had been rebuilt before being shipped to CZ after WW II. This data was (and remains) only 5 years old when first published, so is among the most contemporary data to 1941 MA production, giving it good credibility.

Ray's book lists chassis and engine serial numbers for 60 MA jeeps delivered in 1946. Fifty-nine jeeps had chassis serial numbers ranging from 78442 to 79825, all within the 78401 to 79900 MA serial number range listed earlier in this thread by George Hollins. Forty-two of those MA jeeps had engines with engine serial numbers ranging from 78442 to 79829.

Sixteen of the MA jeeps had engines with serial numbers outside this range, as follows:

4 MAs had engines with serial numbers 80034, 80044, 80061 and 80109. No prefix was listed for any engine serial number in the report, but this 80XXX s/n range falls outside the (chassis) serial number listed earlier by George. These may have been factory replacement engines acquired by the military for the MA.

6 MAs had engines with serial numbers 92009, 92400, 92414, 92465, 92485 and 92489. Engine 92009 appears to be among the very last model 442 engines built in 1942. The other five 924XX engines might have been factory replacement (spare or service) engines for the model 442.

5 MAs had replacement engines with MB engine serial numbers 101177, 104214, 162549, 187312 and 282265. These, to me, were rebuilt or swapped in MB engines.

1 MA had a Ford replacement engine GPW-7583.

The last MA was from the second batch of 50 MA jeeps built in September 1941. It had chassis s/n 85508 and engine s/n 85509, which shows me the last 50 MA engines had engine serial numbers 85501 to 85550 that matched their chassis serial numbers (although the engines would not necessarily be installed in the chassis having a matching s/n; I imagine there was some mix and a few matches).

As noted above, many of these MA jeeps had been rebuilt before shipment to CZ, hence the variety of engine serial numbers in them. Because the MA was a vehicle built to government contract specifications and inspected by government agents before acceptance, I believe all MA jeeps had Willys engines that began with a MA engine serial number within the range of their respective chassis serial numbers. Those who claim Americar model 440, 441 or 442 engines were installed at the factory in some MA and MB jeeps are, IMHO, seriously misinformed. You have the good sense not to believe them. As you note, many Americar engines were available after WW II and were installed by civilians postwar in their Willys jeeps.

I hope you find the above data informative. Enjoy!

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:15 am
by Fabrizio
Very useful and pleasant to read info, thanks Fred!0

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:57 am
by Chuck Lutz
Great detective work Fred!...Thanks for contributing the information here on the gee as some guys I think do not often use the AAW for research as they should.

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:32 pm
by Fred Coldwell
Fabrizio, glad you enjoyed the MA engine information. Chuck, Ray Cowdery did an excellent job gathering MA data from the UN archives and republishing it in his second AAW book for the benefit of his readers and others. It's great to have his data in hard copy print so it is not easily erased or misplaced. :)

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:04 pm
by pbr332
Great information, Fred. Thanks for passing that along.

Re: 440, 441, 442 engine questions

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:10 pm
by pbr332
Thanks for the numbers, George.