EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

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EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Subarubrat » Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:08 pm

I bought a M998 this summer and at first flipping to RUN resulted in a WAIT light for XX seconds and then a prompt start. Over a few weeks of normal use the foibles of the box began to surface and get worse until I had the usual list of symptoms. I did all the usual stuff and realized I had a good truck, bad box. I opened the box and studied the schematics and concluded that the box is a mostly unnecessary creation that inserts a delicate and incredibly poorly designed solution into what is otherwise a reliable vehicle. And for the EMP minded among you, they introduced a chip that once hit by an EMP will disable the vehicle for the duration of the nuclear winter :lol: . I bought a few more failed boxes of various versions to study how they fail and they all stink, even the good one. The issue keeps going back to inserting mostly unnecessary protections (or protections not worth the price you pay for them in reliability) and in the midst of exclaiming WHY! I had a flashback to my Army days and remembered "Oh yeah, they don't trust troops". I am about 25 years into a career as a Space Vehicle Engineer having worked on a variety of over 150 spacecraft where fault tolerance and durability are everything. Using components suitable to the application, not allowing sub-systems to take down the primary platform, and so many other design principles that govern what we do in space flight were not used when they concocted this box. I am not sure what is worse, the number of ways in which failed "protections" can take the box out of commission or the pointlessly complex way they did it with so many single points of failure.

Just because a manufacturer puts a system into a car does not mean it is a good idea or necessary. I have a 355F1, Ferrari spent a huge amount of money adding pre and post cat thermocouples with their own drivers and ECUs, that tie into a central ECU, that connects to the engine ECU. The idea is that if the cats overheat it will turn on a light that says slow down, then if it stays overheated it goes into a limp home mode. Go look at every car you have and see if you have a system like this, your car doesn't need one and neither does the 355F1. All it does is introduce a failure prone and expensive system.

Although I am doing an engine swap sometime this summer I wanted to have what is there run right while I am doing the rest of the work to the truck so I designed the Just F'ing Start (JFS) box. The idea is to reasonably protect the glow plugs but be a bullet proof as possible. I did eliminate two protections that I thought were more trouble than they were worth. Starter protection is one, those of us old enough to remember life before the 2000's probably turned the key on a running vehicle and said "well that was stupid" and waited a few years before doing it again. We also knew not to install our battery backwards. And above all I wanted a way to override everything and heat the plugs if needed. It has been through a few changes but I have the JFS narrowed down to what I am happy with, I just want more testing. As it is now I just flip to RUN, press the cold start button, wait light on..... wait light off, turn it to start and it does. At some point I will probably start converting legacy boxes to JFS for those tired of box issues.

Rev1 Eliminated all protections and provided for normal vehicle functions, glow plug heating time was manually controlled.

Rev2 Includes reverse polarity protection that "fails safe". Includes micro controller based glow plug heating with a manual trigger backup.

Rev3 Adds "profiles" for different heating patterns: Glow 10 sec fixed, glow time Vs Vcc, glow with afterglow, etc.

Rev4 Added ambient temp sensing (I'll probably scrap this as it proved how useless it is but I wanted to play around with it)



I have been testing Rev4 of the JFS for a few weeks now and will be installing a second one in a friend's truck this week. Once I have enough time on it through the winter and warmer weather I will be able to pronounce it ready to produce.


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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Ted Gates » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:46 am

Subarubrat, If you think these OEM versions are bad, you should find a Lau box. They had the ability to burn down hmmwv's (a real afterglow). From my experience, a leading contributor to box failure/glow plug failure is low battery charge. The next is removing the connectors with the batteries still connected. Another is bad connectivity of the grounding points.

There will be a market for a JFS, just remember that there are people out there that do install batteries backwards and/or in parallel and make Crimp-One-Off up for failure reasons. If you sell these, make sure you isolate yourself from liability.

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Kurt Lesser » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:30 am

Liability is one thing you need to worry about in todays market but even more importany is people just don't generally understand electrical systems and secondly, they don't have the skills to make the proper connectons both to the board and to the MS series connectors used in these boxes. It doesn't seem that difficult to the engineers in the group but reading and understanding a schematic is like a blind man trying to read a road map for some people. The simpler you make the installation the better off you will be.

Just take a look at what some people have done when they try to install a 12 volt system in their trucks. Some of them make me wonder if they haven't already toasted their vehicles. My suggestion would be for you to do a repair/exchange on them. This protects both parties.
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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Subarubrat » Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:10 am

Ted Gates wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:46 am
Subarubrat, If you think these OEM versions are bad, you should find a Lau box. They had the ability to burn down hmmwv's (a real afterglow). From my experience, a leading contributor to box failure/glow plug failure is low battery charge. The next is removing the connectors with the batteries still connected. Another is bad connectivity of the grounding points.
Your so right! The way they used the super FETs makes all the boxes very susceptible to brown out (from poor condition batteries), floating grounds, and sudden connects/disconnects. The two FETs fry, or their support circuitry, and your left with a contactor that is working but no current is being supplied through it. Military batteries are treated horribly, they sit for long periods of time, get shipped and stored in all kinds of terrible conditions, and then once installed they are often in a truck that sits for weeks to months at a time. And PMCS is/was a joke that involved ensuring soldiers were crawling all over the trucks in case the battalion commander drove by but not doing useful things.

Once I think the JFS is ready for prime time I will probably get with an existing vendor and do a batch at a time and let them handle retail.

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by milcommoguy » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:51 pm

Picked up my HMMWV in late 2016. After two month of ownership, POOF ! box takes out all the glow plugs. AND I'am stuck and not a happy camper.

Review of prints, dissection of box coupled with stories of ongoing fails, high prices and my empty wallet... required a lasting work around to get going again and I'am not new to this very same rodeo either. Same story years ago with CUCV's that I owned. After backwards engineering box, it was determined IMO, WAY over design with Way to many points of failure just to light off 8 glow plugs for 5 to 10 seconds. I get the automatic need for simple soldier starts... but not at 900 hobby plus bucks.

Two days later, a HMMWV Plug and Play solution using the same box, same plugs, but ditched ALL the electronics (crossover TSU too). Reused one of the solenoids, add another and some off the shelf parts for less than 75 bucks. Simple electric shop 101, understandable and repairable with NO modification to truck. EMP, waterproof and a level of security too.

The smart part is the operator. YOU determine the need for glow cycles times. 30 to 60 degrees outside 1 or 2 cycles of 5 seconds. Minus 6 like three weeks ago 4 or 5 cycles...starts right up.

As a hobby I thought about building too. As noted the liability thing killed it quick for me having read many posts and issues surrounding these boxes and basic electrical issues. I wonder about the many that run out and pop in another unknown, surplus box, sold NO return, crap shoot. For me I like to kinda have a handle on whats going on under the hood and in the box.

Half shafts, IP, fuel pumps, light bulbs, etc. R&R. Funny how the TM's supports darn near every nut and bolt. PCB and ESSS big secret, magic. box.

This build lets the magic out... for the DIY hobbyist on a budget.

When they get to the price of X doors then maybe, CAMO

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Subarubrat » Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:02 am

Very true.

I wouldn't mind a totally manual press to heat setup. I thought about just putting a contactor on the firewall and setting up a button but making the box work for a plug and play replacement was more about proving it could be done after seeing the multiple messes attempted.

One of the biggest FAILS I forgot to mention is that the WAIT light can be off when the plugs are heating and on when they are not heating. The light shows you the faucet is on but doesn't care if the water is running though the pipes. If you want to make a big improvement in the functionality of the light unplug it and run a wire from ground to connection 57 (the cathode/negative) lead to the lamp. Then intercept one of the glow plug leads, you can do this with a male and female bullet connector and a length of wire between them, and run a wire to connection 27 (the anode/positive) so that the WAIT light comes on when the plugs are actually getting power. That gives you positive confirmation right up to the GP that the system is or isn't working rather than what the box thinks is happening.

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Action » Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:51 am

I have never had an issue with a box in my 2 humvees.
I see folks call all PCB “smart boxes”. Aren’t the smart boxes only the ones with the extra port on the inside?
I also read often of folks that cycle the plugs 2 or more times when cold. Couln’t that overheat and swell plugs?
Like i said. I have never had a problem, and i start it the way it is supposed to be started. One cycle til the light goes out. Starts fine in freezing temps.

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Subarubrat » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:47 am

There is a memo that I found, probably posted here, that at one point 25% of the Humvee fleet was down due to failed boxes. So it stands to reason 75% of owners flip the switch and start the truck, but if your that one in four........ I assure you this much, when I wanted to look at several of each version to find out what was failing there was no shortage of failed ones piled up. And yes back to back heating acts like leaving them on too long and does just what you said it does resulting in burned or swollen plugs. The reason people are stacking heat cycles is because the first one doesn't heat the plugs properly and their truck doesn't start, of course the extra cycles are hard on the plugs and the box creating a viscous cycle. Poor grounding and unhealthy batteries can certainly create problems with an otherwise healthy box and plugs, and throwing a malfunctioning cold advance into the mix makes it worse. But even the best of the boxes that is less troublesome is fragile to the point that poor grounding, batteries, or plugs can damage it because they are all based on the same design, so much so they sued in 12-216C: 2Plaintiffs Uusi, LLC (“Uusi”) and OLDNAR Corporation (“OLDNAR”) bring thispatent infringement suitagainst the United States pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1498(a). Plaintiffs allege that Defendantpurchased engine starter devices for inclusion in High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles(“Humvees”)from AM General LLC (“AM General”) and GHSP, Inc.

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by milcommoguy » Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:01 am

Your right about the "WAIT" indicator. In my design that was taken care of by pulling the "WAIT" led control lead 571A / pin E to ground with a transistor (2N2222) sampling the glow plug feed. Simple. Got "WAIT" ... got glow.

And added... a simple circuit for starter lock-out too. Sample alternator AC "engine running" to break start control.

There's a little bit of logic going on in the OEM box... But I wouldn't say "SMART' when it goes all rouge. That's 1000 buck headache to play OEM and it's only going up with demand.

My design and field tested just get to the basics to manage the power and start the truck. A drop-in... better mouse trap on a budget, with OTC field replaceable parts.

You point to all the research that I used to go in the direction I took... Plus a junk box full of parts. LOL

It's all about time (there's something to think about, movie or a pun) when the next box dies, CAMO

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Kurt Lesser » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:53 am

Hey Subarubrat and Cam, Let's get together and have some PCBs made by JLPCB since they're the cheapest source for them and we can offer bare boards or completed units. I have half a dozen old boxes around that could be gutted to start with. Heaven knows there are hundreds of dead boxes out there so they shouldn't be hard to come by.

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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by Jetnoise400 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:42 am

I have a couple boxes I could offer up to the pool.
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Re: EESS/SSS (that darn box) rant and the JFS

Post by milcommoguy » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:50 am

Taking it to the next level Camoteksystems is in production of our "Glow & GO" Using our PDMGC. "Power Distribution Manual Glow Control" It is a direct, drop in replacement for everything about the "Darn Box" without the computer chip. Our design has been in service for seven years without fail.

Hobbyists know the HMMWV uses a simple diesel engine. Why over complicate it with a "computer chip" with thousands of transistor and related parts to energize a set of glow plugs. What possibly could go wrong ? ... as in combat or lets go to town.

Glow & GO design uses off the shelve parts from most any auto supply. No propriety computer project at the component level to get back on the road?

Direct contact with the company owner "CAMO" for customer support. Try that phone call with your current "Darn Box"

Hmmwv owner take note. Colder temperatures are around the corner. Hard starting with white smoke or no start at all could be a sign that the "Darn Box" died months ago, possibility taking out all of the glow plugs with it.

You now have a smarter choice when it comes to a failed "Darn Box" or PCB, EESS or SS replacement for all HMMWV's.

Take control at>
Camoteksystems.com :D Camoteksystems@gmail.com :D U Tube search Camoteksystems[/size]


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