WC 52 Engine Noise

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Blue1
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WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:38 am

Hello Everyone
I have WC 52 1942, and over a period of time I have been trying to trouble shoot a weird engine noise.

After over a month of troubleshooting the noise from my truck engine when driving. It comes from the lower rear area and only does this after driving a few minutes and until it cools down. I checked my flywheel bolts and Transmission bearings. I did and found everything okay. Replaced TO Bearing in trans and had valves professionally adjusted.
I still cannot find this knock/ Rattle noise. So after going through everything, checking loose parts, bolts etc.I took the Dodge for another drive. The engine is smooth and no noise at all, until about 3-5 minutes into the drive. The noise starts again
It would make it when you accelerated and after changing 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. If the fourth gear after you are rolling pretty good. You do not hear it until you quickly accelerate again. Like a rattle.
I stopped, place it in neutral and clutch out. Rev the engine up high but not too much. It made the rattle/ on the high end for a few seconds until I let of the gas. Then I put in Gear with Clutch Depressed. It did the same again.
Next test. was leaving the truck running, place the Ebrake on, and while my friend sat behind the wheel and held the brake. I crawled under the truck and had him accelerate. The noise was coming from the oil pan, but only on the high end acceleration. I checked it with my stethoscope and that is where the noise is the loudest.
I had the pan off earlier this summer, and did not see anything wrong, loose or broken. I cleaned pan, the filter and checked the teeth on the Oil Pump. Everything seemed okay. There was no big shavings in the pan either. Just really small particles (Gold dust type) in the sludge. Not that much.
There is no oil loss or overheating. The engine sounds great idling or a moderate speed. The engine is Dodge Flathead T37 from 1948 and has been rebuilt in 2007, Not that many miles, about 50,000.
Today the readings were: Oil pressure is a 60 when starting and after running for a few minutes. Its a 40-45.
Temperature after driving is about 170 ( has 160 Thermostat and was 80 degrees outside today), I use 20w50 Oil for Germany and run 93 Octane fuel.
After the truck cools down a bit you cannot hear the rattle when you rev it up.
Something is making this happen after driving for a few minutes. I am at my wits end with the reason. I really appreciate any advice, and hope it is not something I have to rebuild the engine. Other than this the trucks runs great. I hope I gave enough info, but not too much.
dodge.jpg
WC 52 Dodge
Thanks for any help at all.

Respectfully

Curt


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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by W. Winget » Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:18 am

50,000 since rebuild on a Flathead 6?
Bearings.
If it were a double tap it may be the piston pin loose, but a knock is likely a rod bearing after the oil begins to thin.
There are checks, best way is to pull pan, pull rod caps and inspect. (if there is wear mains should also be suspect)

Cheap way may be dump the oil, put some single weight 30 or 40 in her and see if it still makes the noise (single weight not multiviscosity) this may delay the noise, indicating the current oil was being thinned and allowing the bearing to knock, but it's not the "solution" if it comes back a few minutes later it's warning you that it may throw a rod, then you will really have some work vs. pulling the pan, inspecting, possibly inserting .10 oversize what you have in her and reassembling (or plastigauge them and see just what you really need)
V/R W. Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by W. Winget » Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:23 am

50,000 since rebuild on a Flathead 6?
Bearings.
If it were a double tap it may be the piston pin loose, but a knock is likely a rod bearing after the oil begins to thin.
There are checks, best way is to pull pan, pull rod caps and inspect. (if there is wear mains should also be suspect)

Cheap way may be dump the oil, put some single weight 30 or 40 in her and see if it still makes the noise (single weight not multiviscosity) this may delay the noise, indicating the current oil was being thinned and allowing the bearing to knock, but it's not the "solution" if it comes back a few minutes later it's warning you that it may throw a rod, then you will really have some work vs. pulling the pan, inspecting, possibly inserting .10 oversize what you have in her and reassembling (or plastigauge them and see just what you really need)
V/R W. Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:25 pm

Thank you for the reply.
I will definitely do that this weekend. I suspected this but was hoping something smaller.
Is it hard to replace the bearings while the motor is in the vehicle or do you have to pull the engine?
I only worked on VW Kubelwagens and Schwimmwagens. You had to pull them for everything, but was a lot smaller.
I really appreciate your help and will get it taken care of immediately. I have to find a mechanic shop here in Germany that can help me with heavy stuff.
Thank you so much
V/R
Curt

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by W. Winget » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:40 pm

If the oil pan can be removed (like you did) then it's a simple case of removing the rod nuts, checking the bearings, then retorquing the nuts as you put it together. You will need a torque wrench...That engine can remain in place and be rebuilt without lifting, the pistons come out the top. Unless the crankshaft needed work, the transmission can remain connected and all the front pulleys
Haven't been under mine in years, but removal of the front drive shaft may improve access, and it is all written in the manuals on how to do these steps. I would say if you were around Wildflicken, Kaiserslautern, Grafenwoehr, Vilseck, there would be plenty of old timers that turned wrenches on those bases the US used and many ended up as range targets, including Bundeswehr use as temporary vehicles in the 50's-60's as restrictions on waffen equipment were in place.
Hope it's an easy fix.
V/R W. Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:47 pm

Great
Thank you so much. I live in Kaiserslautern and think there is a guy outside of ROB Rhine Ordinance Barracks who works on old timers, US.

Is there any specific signs that I should look at for the bearings being bad? The VW ones would be almost Paper thin being it was oil cooled engine. They would go at 50,000 Kilometers also.
Thanks again for all your help. The truck is a lot of fun and I want to drive it with ease again.
Thank you
V/R
Curt

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by W. Winget » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:00 pm

Google bearing wear pattern images. This can tell you the condition. In general, if your fingernail can catch on a ridge on the crankshaft, it will need turning. Hopefully its just a need for replacement bearing shells if it comes to it. Maybe even the same size, but new ifare lucky.
Take photos and post them!
V/R W. Winget

PS Attended a MV rally at K Town training area back in 1985, super fun, Friend Ralph Krause from Schweinfurt in his WOF jeep. Waw
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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:15 pm

Great thanks
It will be a week or so to get to it all. I have to do extra work at Coleman in Mannheims new APS site.
I have a friend here in a group called Kellys Heros. His name is George Abramsche. I bet he was there also.
Thanks again and will talk to you soon
V/R
Curt

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by dpcd67 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:56 pm

Plastigage them; if they are worn, that will tell you, no matter if they look smooth. Which they likely will. Easy job, on your back, to change rod bearings on a 230. I've done it on M37s. Old timers used to put shims under the bearings; I do not recommend that. But 50K miles is a lifetime for these engines.
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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by W. Winget » Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:37 pm

Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:06 pm

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I believe bearings also.

I found a Oldtimer Repair shop in Hochspeyer (11km away from me).
Mr Edinger, who works on several US Cars and British. He has done work on Jeeps M38 and Willys MB. His family ran the business since 1933. He rode with me and said he heard the noise, and is pulling off the pan and to check everything this week. He will repair all that needs to be done correctly. I feel really comfortable with him and he has an Engine Machine Shop also(Worse case scenario).

Interesting fact was that his father was a German soldier, and had worked on Dodges captured by the Whermact, and after the war also. There was a valley near Bad Durkheim that had a convoy of German Soldiers, and was hit by P47s ( spring of 1945). The vehicles had no where to go but over the cliff or destroyed in place. He said they used to go up there and get parts from Dodges and Jeeps that were trashed and still standing there. Everything is gone now, but a cool story.

Thanks again for the websites, and I will let you know how it turns out. Great advice from experts and I learned very much
Curt

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:03 am

Hello Everyone

I got back from the Mechanic shop today.
They checked the bearings are not the problem. They were good. I checked with the previous owner who had the engine rebuilt (Finally after he answered the emails). The Speedometer was a used one so the mileage was not correct. It is more like 15,000 Miles on it than 50. I was sort of angry about that, and had me thinking it was original miles. The oil pressure was great even after changing to 10W30 oils, no smoking, and the ticking goes away after a few seconds with the oil rising in the engine and only hear the Fuel pump.

Apparently the German Old-timer mechanic drove it around, and determined it is in the gear box some where. The sound is loudest and 2nd and 3rd Gear, and appears to come from the front of trans/ back of engine.
He tested it several times. He explained that the rattle was from the worn part in the transmission, and so worn after time, that it has free play at a certain rpm.

Earlier this year, I had the gear box top opened doing self inspection. I noticed the gears were very worn, but did not see big chunks of metal, just real fine dust like particles. I guess the previous owner just re-painted the box, checked everything over with original gears, and reinstalled it. I determined to just buy a new rebuilt Gear Box from Wildenberg and swap them out, and have the old one rebuilt( if worth it). I do use 90w Gear oil in it called Wagner's Old-timer Gear Oil.

It has new T/O Bearing, clutch is adjusted, and the flywheel is not loose or damaged.

So I get the truck back Saturday and wait for the transmission to arrive. I hope this solves the noise. It is just strange to me how you can hear that noise in the back of the engine/flywheel area. I really hope this is it. I will keep you posted, and thanks for all and any input. Whew, what a journey!!!

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:35 am

Hello
I attached 2 photos from another vehicle, not mine. Circled area is where the noise is coming from, and the shaft part the mechanic says it rattles when at a certain RPM. He said it does that because the gears are worn in the gear box. Is this possible? Would this being loose that it would damage the crank shaft?
Thank so much for taking the time to help and school me. I am new at this.
Cheers
Curt
ENGINE TRANS NOISE.jpg
Transmission Gear.jpg
Photo 2 Transmission shaft.
Attachments
ENGINE TRANS NOISE.jpg
Photo1 Trans/Engine

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by W. Winget » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:12 am

Good News, it's not in the engine so much (maybe).The transmission shaft centers on a Pilot Bearing on one end and bearings inside the transmission on the other end. You mentioned you checked the transmission bearings already as well as the throwout bearing. Did you check the Pilot Bearing in the end of the crankshaft?

By pulling the transmission they will be able to access the Pilot Bearing and replace it, as well as disassemble the transmission and replace the possibly worn bearings in the case to ensure it is stable (Which you said you have checked...).

From another web site on the pilot bushing: "Grease on the bushing will seal the pores IF it's an Oilite and it will make odd noises and drag the input shaft..."

Or you might find a replacement transmission, and still replace the pilot bearing in the end of the engine crankshaft. (even a borrowed transmission just to check would be a great solution)
These fixes are much cheaper than a bearing job on an engine, but I cannot promise it is the correct "fix"

If the noise is present while the engine is running, sitting in Neutral with the clutch pushed in, the transmission is sitting fairly still and should not be making a noise until the clutch is let out. You stated you tried this and it still started to rattle.

So making a leap here, what "weight" (thickness) of oil are you using in your transmission? Some thicker multi-vis 90-120 may 'cure' the rattle and be more stable while running. Certainly worth the try before spending a lot of money chasing a noise, and if it doesn't eliminate or quiet the noise in some manner, then it is still very likely to be in the engine bearings.

V/R W. Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

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Re: WC 52 Engine Noise

Post by Blue1 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:54 am

Hi Sir
Thanks so much for your answer.

Yes, the rattle is heard for a brief second when you rev the engine up high, setting still, with clutch pushed in. Only for a brief second, like a piece of sheet metal loose type of rattle (but not). This puzzles me too if it is the transmission.

I did not check the pilot bearing, but is it a good idea to replace it anyway when I pull the Gear Box? Do you have a recommended brand/style? I also use 90W Gear Oil from Wagners Old Timer Cars, but I will try your recommendation. I just have to find it here.

I had planned on buying a spare Gear Box here to bring back to the US, so I will just install it now and have my old one rebuilt and bring home. So I am trying the Gear Oil you recommend until I get the new Gear Box. The good news is 2 miles down the road my friend runs a John Deere repair shop. They helped me before with the T/O, so I will call on them again. They have all the pits, heavy lifts, etc.

I really hope this works, and will start looking for the heavier gear oil. I really appreciate your time helping me with this. I am least learning more about the truck as I take things apart.
I will let you know after the gear oil change and further developments.
Cheers
Curt


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