The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
- pjones
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The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Despite all the great information on this tool forum concerning jeep on board toolkits it still amazes me at the number of just horrible "jeep toolkits" out there for sale online. Even more surprising to me is that these sellers consistently receive good feedback on Ebay.
Despite this, their kits do serve a purpose and going through them can be a useful exercise especially for those new to the forum. Luca was always good about bringing these up mostly to help guys from buying incorrect kits. So, for Luca, here is a set I recently saw on ebay. What do you guys think of this set?
phil
Despite this, their kits do serve a purpose and going through them can be a useful exercise especially for those new to the forum. Luca was always good about bringing these up mostly to help guys from buying incorrect kits. So, for Luca, here is a set I recently saw on ebay. What do you guys think of this set?
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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- pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Some more photos.
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
A few more photos.
phil
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Among the many obvious incorrect tools, the ones that are most glaring are the flat panel postwar Barcalo wrenches. I had some Barcalo postwar extra wrenches listed on eBay a while back and the buyer was one of the eBay sellers well known for selling incorrect “Jeep” toolsets. I briefly considered canceling his bid but realized that the wrenches were common and he would buy them from another seller anyway. At least it was a different individual than the one selling the set above.
-Don
-Don
Ford GPW 76344 DOD 11/42 Built in Richmond, CA
- pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Don,
I'm still trying to get my mind around the fact that you let go of some of your Barcalo wrenches.
Well at least he chose a brand that is in general accepted as a supplier of WW 2 DOE wrenches albeit a post war version. There is a jewel in all the junk though. The A 1339 hub puller is a rare item. These do show up on Ebay from time to time and usually go for big bucks. They were a part of the on board tool kit really from the begining until almost the end of the war. It still doesn't make the BIN price of 900+$ nearly worth it.
phil
I'm still trying to get my mind around the fact that you let go of some of your Barcalo wrenches.
Well at least he chose a brand that is in general accepted as a supplier of WW 2 DOE wrenches albeit a post war version. There is a jewel in all the junk though. The A 1339 hub puller is a rare item. These do show up on Ebay from time to time and usually go for big bucks. They were a part of the on board tool kit really from the begining until almost the end of the war. It still doesn't make the BIN price of 900+$ nearly worth it.
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Phil,
I'll bite and throw in my two cents worth.
Except for the hub puller, even the jack is post war. Based on the price I would put this kit in the "ugly" category and stay away.
My issue is not what is in the kit as much as how it is represented (or misrepresented) as a way to justify a price that one would pay for correct items.
Years ago William Warren offered $100 tool kits. These were simply a tool bag with 5 wrenches, a hammer, adjustable wrenches and an Irwin style screwdriver. He never advertised it as original or correct, he simply painted everything green and said it was a motor pool display item. When I first started out it was fine. When I got educated and began acquiring correct tools I got rid of those two kits selling them for $100 each.
As for eBay positive feedback, that speaks volumes. If you are happy with what you got then say so. What makes you happy may fall short for me. If people are uninformed but make a decision based on strangers' feedback then they get what they deserve.
The age old phrase Caveat Emptor holds true. In Reagan parlance, "trust but verify". In the words of the comedian Ron White, "you can't fix stupid".
In closing, the internet has plenty of information and "experts" but when it comes to education that is up the individual. Like you, I scratch my head and say, "why", when I see that someone bought this stuff but it is their money (or used to be...HA!).
I'm glad that Ron created the G and guys like you have made contributions to educate guys like me.
Cheers,
Peter
I'll bite and throw in my two cents worth.
Except for the hub puller, even the jack is post war. Based on the price I would put this kit in the "ugly" category and stay away.
My issue is not what is in the kit as much as how it is represented (or misrepresented) as a way to justify a price that one would pay for correct items.
Years ago William Warren offered $100 tool kits. These were simply a tool bag with 5 wrenches, a hammer, adjustable wrenches and an Irwin style screwdriver. He never advertised it as original or correct, he simply painted everything green and said it was a motor pool display item. When I first started out it was fine. When I got educated and began acquiring correct tools I got rid of those two kits selling them for $100 each.
As for eBay positive feedback, that speaks volumes. If you are happy with what you got then say so. What makes you happy may fall short for me. If people are uninformed but make a decision based on strangers' feedback then they get what they deserve.
The age old phrase Caveat Emptor holds true. In Reagan parlance, "trust but verify". In the words of the comedian Ron White, "you can't fix stupid".
In closing, the internet has plenty of information and "experts" but when it comes to education that is up the individual. Like you, I scratch my head and say, "why", when I see that someone bought this stuff but it is their money (or used to be...HA!).
I'm glad that Ron created the G and guys like you have made contributions to educate guys like me.
Cheers,
Peter
- pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Hi Peter. Thanks for playing but no prizes here . I can't argue, its pretty ugly.
You are being way too humble Peter. Based on our few phone conversations its very clear you are a wealth of knowledge not only about everything jeep but also its tool kit.
Agreed, it is absolutely up to the buyer to educate themselves. I have learned the hard way at times by paying too much for incorrect items but thankfully I don't do that nearly as much nowadays. Hopefully this exercise will help someone from making a 600$ plus mistake.
Peter, though its on the tool forum elsewhere, would you mind pointing out the features of the jack that make it post war?
phil
You are being way too humble Peter. Based on our few phone conversations its very clear you are a wealth of knowledge not only about everything jeep but also its tool kit.
Agreed, it is absolutely up to the buyer to educate themselves. I have learned the hard way at times by paying too much for incorrect items but thankfully I don't do that nearly as much nowadays. Hopefully this exercise will help someone from making a 600$ plus mistake.
Peter, though its on the tool forum elsewhere, would you mind pointing out the features of the jack that make it post war?
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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- pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
May as well take a look at the oiler. In the description the seller states that it is a GEM oiler. A really good choice for a jeep toolkit particularly if you're putting together a Willys toolkit. But it doesn't look the correct size to me.
Given that the closed jack stands 6 1/2 inches tall (which coincidentally, I think, is the same height as a correct oiler with spout) I'm going to guess the oil can (not including the spout) stands about 4" tall. Comparing the base of the jack (4" x 6") with that of the oiler it also looks to be more than 4" in diameter. I'd guess that oiler holds a good bit more than 8 ounces. As if all that wasn't bad enough the spout is more than 4" in length and bent. I'd add that to the ugly pile.
phil
Given that the closed jack stands 6 1/2 inches tall (which coincidentally, I think, is the same height as a correct oiler with spout) I'm going to guess the oil can (not including the spout) stands about 4" tall. Comparing the base of the jack (4" x 6") with that of the oiler it also looks to be more than 4" in diameter. I'd guess that oiler holds a good bit more than 8 ounces. As if all that wasn't bad enough the spout is more than 4" in length and bent. I'd add that to the ugly pile.
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Phil,
Thanks for the kind words.
On the jack, the war time jacks have a rectangular tab for the "up/down" setting and the cup is round not oblong. The pictures of both can be found on jeepdraw...how ironic...HA!
The "ugly" kit has an oblong cup and the oblong "up/down" tab. It is fine for motor pool displays.
Besides being produced after the war for CJ's, the same post war style was issued with the Mighty Mite. This is why people find military green jacks and think they are WWII.
I have to give credit where it is due, Prem schooled me on this several years ago.
Like you, once you know what to look for it is easier to look past distractions.
I know I sent you pictures of the kits I assembled for my 3 MB's, feel free to post them if you like.
Let me know if I need to clarify anything.
Best Regards,
Peter
Thanks for the kind words.
On the jack, the war time jacks have a rectangular tab for the "up/down" setting and the cup is round not oblong. The pictures of both can be found on jeepdraw...how ironic...HA!
The "ugly" kit has an oblong cup and the oblong "up/down" tab. It is fine for motor pool displays.
Besides being produced after the war for CJ's, the same post war style was issued with the Mighty Mite. This is why people find military green jacks and think they are WWII.
I have to give credit where it is due, Prem schooled me on this several years ago.
Like you, once you know what to look for it is easier to look past distractions.
I know I sent you pictures of the kits I assembled for my 3 MB's, feel free to post them if you like.
Let me know if I need to clarify anything.
Best Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Peter
Thank you for explaining the finer details - A comparison photo showing those details.
This rusty relic appeared on G503 FB in June 2018 & was described as being ' Found with a metal detector in Pretot St Suzanne, near St Mere Eglise '
When questioned ' Round or Oval ' - This was the reply
Len
Thank you for explaining the finer details - A comparison photo showing those details.
This rusty relic appeared on G503 FB in June 2018 & was described as being ' Found with a metal detector in Pretot St Suzanne, near St Mere Eglise '
When questioned ' Round or Oval ' - This was the reply
Len
Owner & Custodian of GPW 24043 since 1976.
MVT No 366.
MVT No 366.
- pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Thanks Peter and Len.
This has been the source of many very animated discussions on the G previously.
Willys engineering drawing A-1240 shows a round cup and rectangular tab. Based on that my keeper jack like yours and Len's is R-R (round-rectangle). Though there are reportedly war era photos of jacks with oval cups and oval tabs (O-O). We do not have Ford's drawing (that I am aware of though I have read old discussions here where it is referred to as if someone had a copy) so we don't have any proof of what cup or tab it had. Apparently the O-O style was supplied with the CJ making it even more challenging to date.
But I agree, I do not have any problem using a O-O style in a motor pool set.
Peter, I will post photos of your sets in a separate thread. They are very impressive. They would be a great template for guys putting a set together to follow.
Thanks for the input guys.
phil
Addendum: I suspect Ford also used The Spun Steel Co as Willys did but I have no proof of that.
This has been the source of many very animated discussions on the G previously.
Willys engineering drawing A-1240 shows a round cup and rectangular tab. Based on that my keeper jack like yours and Len's is R-R (round-rectangle). Though there are reportedly war era photos of jacks with oval cups and oval tabs (O-O). We do not have Ford's drawing (that I am aware of though I have read old discussions here where it is referred to as if someone had a copy) so we don't have any proof of what cup or tab it had. Apparently the O-O style was supplied with the CJ making it even more challenging to date.
But I agree, I do not have any problem using a O-O style in a motor pool set.
Peter, I will post photos of your sets in a separate thread. They are very impressive. They would be a great template for guys putting a set together to follow.
Thanks for the input guys.
phil
Addendum: I suspect Ford also used The Spun Steel Co as Willys did but I have no proof of that.
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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- pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
I am going to throw the auto wrench in the ugly pile as well. That wrench would not pass the hub wrench test. It is 11" at least per the sellers description and a Vlchek. While we do not know the supplier for Ford (though a 12" Moore is preferred by most collectors) we do for Willys. Billings and Spencer is the preferred brand for Willys throughout the war but mid war and later Fairmount also provided auto wrenches to Willys.
phil
phil
pjones
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Thanks Phil
As you mentioned the auto wrench, and the hub nut test. It seemed like a good idea to post some ' Moore ' comparisons
Sometimes there are some good auction site listings like this one from 2016
Look forward to seeing those sets too.
Len
As you mentioned the auto wrench, and the hub nut test. It seemed like a good idea to post some ' Moore ' comparisons
Sometimes there are some good auction site listings like this one from 2016
Look forward to seeing those sets too.
Len
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Owner & Custodian of GPW 24043 since 1976.
MVT No 366.
MVT No 366.
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
Len,
Great idea and thanks for demonstrating the hub wrench test. It might be worth mentioning that to be a correct ww2 onboard jeep auto wrench you do have to pass the hub wrench test BUT passing the hub wrench test alone does not make you ww2 era or correct for the jeep. Some prewar auto wrenches pass the test as well. So knowing correct era tool stampings are important as well. The finish can be a helpful clue as well.
phil
Len, Did you buy that set?
Great idea and thanks for demonstrating the hub wrench test. It might be worth mentioning that to be a correct ww2 onboard jeep auto wrench you do have to pass the hub wrench test BUT passing the hub wrench test alone does not make you ww2 era or correct for the jeep. Some prewar auto wrenches pass the test as well. So knowing correct era tool stampings are important as well. The finish can be a helpful clue as well.
phil
Len, Did you buy that set?
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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Re: The Good, The Bad and The just plain Ugly
The hammer is listed as 12ounces in the item description so I'll throw it in the ugly pile as well.
Anyone have any thoughts about the lugnut wrench? Maybe its another jewel in the junk???
phil
Anyone have any thoughts about the lugnut wrench? Maybe its another jewel in the junk???
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
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