Indestro Duro X-circle wrench and screwdriver question

[Laminatrap]

I am doing some research wartime tools, and maybe not something that is used for a jeep. I am hoping some of the knowledge here can help.

I am looking to find out if there was any other Indestro X-circle 1/2 inch open end wrench other than the 1025?

What is the finish on X-circle wrenches?

I am looking for a Indestro screwdriver part number for one that is about 6" long and has a 3/16" flat blade.
I see there was an Indestro 136 ignition screwdriver in another thread, but I would think this was much smaller.

[Len Jones]

Hi Laminatrap

Yes, #1022 size 1/2''' X 5/16'' and #1725B size 9/16'' X 1/2''

Plus probably others too ? Some photos for reference showing the finish from NOS to used examples.

Len

[d42jeep]

The Indestro 136 screwdrivers have approximately a 2” blade and are probably less than 6” long overall. They are the same size as the 41-S-1550 Duro-Chrome screwdrivers that came in the larger ignition wrench set. Both of my Indestro screwdrivers are postwar, as far as I can tell. I think that finding a wartime Indestro screwdriver may be difficult if not impossible.
-Don

[Laminatrap]

Thanks guys! I did some further digging.

I found a Indestro listing from 1939 which lists the wrenches they made. As I understand it the numbers were somewhat of a industry standard.
listed in length order with the other size. Blue is what has been confirmed.
5 3/4 1022 5/16
5 3/4 1023 13/32
5 3/4 1723A 3/8
6 1/4 1725 7/16
6 1/4 1725B 9/16
6 1/4 1025 19/32
7 1/8 1726 5/8
7 1/8 1026 11/16

Comparing the supplied pictures and scaling a photo of the wrench I am trying to determine I would say it has to be a 1725, 1725B, 1025. I was leaning to the 1725, but have to confirm there was an X-circle that was made.

The color is interesting. Some look black and maybe parkerized? others look cadmium plated, which I believe can be blackened. Yet others look chrome but somehow darkened.

Screwdrivers seem to be harder to figure out. It seems whomever wrote the technical manual used over all length and tip size. There is also conflicting information making me question the 6' length.
What caught my eye on these forums was an Inderstro 136 that had fluted sections, unlike the ones posted above.

Here is a comparison. The handle proportions make me think it is a different Indestro number. Note the squared vs rounded appearance of the front section of the handle.

While I am at it can anyone identify the maker of this screwdriver?

[Len Jones]

Hi Laminatrap

I assume this is that list ?

It is highly probable that some if not all these sizes would have been produced for the Government during WW2 bearing the circle ' X ' logo.
However other odd sizes produced specially for the Government are likely not to have been listed in any civilian catalogues.

My upper NOS examples have a black parkerized finish, for comparison my lower examples show this finish having worn away, and are not chrome.

Hope this helps ?

Nice screwdrivers too Don

Len

[Wingnutt]

Laminatrap,

Following this conversation is a little like listening to a blind man walk around a large wrinkly beast with his hands trying to figure what kind of animal it is by describing it to others, when all the zookeepers would know it's an elephant if you showed it to us. And I say that with no ill intent.

I am doing some research wartime tools, and maybe not something that is used for a jeep.

I think it would be more effective and more direct if you told us what you are researching. There's not much about wartime Duro-Indestro DOE wrench production that is unknown here. I'd go so far as to say it's not a case of research being required if you let us know more about what you have and what you're trying to figure out.

Blue is what has been confirmed.

Been confirmed as what?!

Comparing the supplied pictures and scaling a photo of the wrench I am trying to determine I would say it has to be a 1725, 1725B, 1025. I was leaning to the 1725, but have to confirm there was an X-circle that was made.

I am getting the impression you have some manual or some photo showing the figure of a Duro DOE wrench with a Circle-X logo and you are trying to figure out what size it would be, because it is not identified. The best way for us to help you would be to show us what you are looking at.

[Laminatrap]

Len, The wrench list i found is in a different format, but basically the same information. It was from a Jensen-Byrd catalog.

I have been copying and pasting different Indestro wrenches into a picture I have of the wrench and I am thinking it is a 1725B wrench. So if anyone has one in excess to there needs I may be in the market for one of them.

On the screwdrivers, I found a 1937 Indestro catalog and the shape is different. A 1959 catalog has the basic shape, but has paint in some of the grooves and they do not appear to have the striations.

Possible part numbers I am searching are 3613 and 3614. It may be a fools quest as I have seen other war issue screwdrivers that the length used was not listed in the manufacturers catalog from the same period, so it may have been a special run for the military.

[Wingnutt]

...a picture I have of the wrench...

Why don't you post the picture? What is the source/reference (title, date, etc) of the document in which the picture appears?

[Laminatrap]

Wingnut,
The blue text in my above post are the wrenches I have seen pictures of and know they exist.
Since I have narrowed down which wrench it may be a 1725, 1725B, 1025. I am leaning to the the 1725B as the 9/16 size I can find a use for in servicing the unit

I do not have a copy of the manual, but looking for one. A friend who has one scanned the page.
It is TM 5-9340 (1944) for the Sniperscope and Snooperscope. I suspect most are not familiar with what that is.
The Snooperscope and Sniperscope was a gen-0 infrared device.

I can make out the circle X on the bottom of the wrench. The top of the wrench is too dark to make out the model number.
The manual in states it is a 1/2" wrench.
There is much more to the story and any zookeepers familiar with it I could discuss it with you, but suspect it is far off topic of this forum?

[Joe Friday]

These are the only Indestro I stumbled upon today.
The 2nd one from the top one could be the one you are describing (but newer)?

I wouldn't assume anything about what G members might know about or have interest in.
Some us are familiar with the Sniperscope. My dad was actually an infrared specialist and was contracted to develop a heads up might vision system for the M38 at Fort Belvoir.

[Wingnutt]

Hey, now we're getting somewhere!

Not only do I know what the Sniperscope (M1/M2 mounted) is, I have actually seen an example of the unmounted 20,000 volt Snooperscope version, many times, in the display case outside the Director's Office at Night Vision Labs on Ft Belvoir, where it was developed. (I am retired Army, an RF/EW guy, and I used to work at the Signals Warfare Lab (SWL or "swill") at Vint Hill Farms Station, and also at INSCOM HQ on Ft Belvoir, and I am the Special Assistant to the Chief Engineer of the modern incarnations of NVL and the SWL, which have now been converged into the C5ISR Center, DEVCOM, Army Futures Command.) All of which is no help to you on your quest.

I'll be back.

[Wingnutt]

The wrench and the screwdriver in Figure 30 from TM 5-9340 (dated 1 September 1944) are obviously not to scale, which is bizarre. While I can see why you would take the comparative proportional scaling approach in the absence of a tool list that actually provides the milled openings sizes of both ends of the DOE wrench, we don't even know which end has the 1/2" opening. Your analysis has been very good, I'd say, in terms of the other milled opening size being close to 1/2". I'm sure you know 9/16" (725B) is by far the most common pairing, but it could be a 725 or a 25 and I'm not sure I'd even rule out 723A. Duro Circle-X wrenches won't break the bank, so you could buy one of each to cover your bases.

I do think you've done very well to ID the wrench as Duro Circle-X. It does have the right profile, and they did make them in a very dark natural steel, as well as the black oxide.

I do have a lot of questions about the screwdriver.

How do you know the screwdriver was supplied by Duro? (While it seems common sense they would use the same supplier, it is very often NOT the case.)

Where are you getting the 6" OAL and 3/16" flat blade dimensions you cited in your first post? The figure indicates 9/32" blade (an odd tip width for sure) and provides no OAL or shank length.

Similarly, where are you getting the 3613 and 3614 P/N's from? The tools are labeled J-61 and J-64 in the figure. If there is an SNL or parts list on the page your buddy has scanned for you, post that. Post the whole page.

Those J- numbers imply a J-62 and a J-63. What are those tools? Are they listed elsewhere? Are they shown in a different figure? They may help identify the DOE wrench and screwdriver. How many tools are there in the kit, and what are they? You're being too judicious, revealing too little. If you want to maximize our chances for helping, show us everything you have.

[Wingnutt]

Lastly...

You mentioned your friend has TM 5-9340, dated 1 Sep 1944, where the figure came from. A second Sniper/Snooperscope related TM, in case you're not aware, is TM 5-9341, 15 June 1945, Operation and Maintenance Sniperscope Models M1 and M2. If you haven't already done so, I would recommend looking at postwar TM's as well. I think they would apply up through 1952, when it was replaced. TM 5-9342A, dated 7 April 1952, Repair and Maintenance for Sniperscope IR Set No. 1, for example, might be easier to find than the wartime manuals.

On that note, here is an interesting page from the January 1955 version of the Infantry School Quarterly.

It footnotes the tool set for the twenty-five (25) Sniperscopes being used in a field course. Strane part number formats, but maybe you'll have some luck with them that you can possibly apply retroactively. Note that the wrench is now a combination wrench. Combination wrenches were quite rare in WWII, but that might help explain why the 1944 manual lists only one opening size. As you probably know, the configuration for a combination wrench is typically an open and box end of the same opening size. Perhaps we're giving the 1944 manual too much credit for the veracity of the images they selected for a wrench and screwdriver. Have you actually seen any period photos of the tool kit?

[Laminatrap]

I wouldn't assume anything about what G members might know about or have interest in.
Some us are familiar with the Sniperscope. My dad was actually an infrared specialist and was contracted to develop a heads up might vision system for the M38 at Fort Belvoir.

Joe, I did not mean to infer those members here had no interest in the scope, just that it may have been off topic for the forum or at least the tool section. I am new here and do not want to get on the wrong side of the mods.
I did however assume that anyone familiar with the scope in question I would probably have already been in contact with. I hope my assumptions are wrong and there are some out there willing to exchange information.
I would be interested in your dad’s stories though!

Not only do I know what the Sniperscope (M1/M2 mounted) is, I have actually seen an example of the unmounted 20,000 volt Snooperscope version, many times, in the display case outside the Director's Office at Night Vision Labs on Ft Belvoir, where it was developed.

I am familiar with Ft. Belvoir’s development of the M3 Sniperscope. The big question is if the one on display was one of the 24 prototypes made by Hillyer Engineering or a production version?

Prototype M3

Production M3

M1 vs M2

I was trying to keep it to the 3 tools in question, but to extrapolate just a little bit.

TM 5-9340 1 Sep 1944 was for the T120 Sniperscope/Snooperscope. The Snooperscope was the same telescope on a hand mount. It was a trial by fire, and these are the ones that were used on Okinawa. A special M1 carbine was designed for the scope and was the T3 carbine. When the scope was adopted, it was known as the M1 Sniperscope/Snooperscope

TM 5-9341 15 June 1945 and ENG 9-9341 15, July 1945 was for the M2 Sniperscope. This was also used on the T3 carbine. It was different animal than the M1 telescope with almost the same electronics. It required different tools. The Snooperscope was no more. The M2 Sniperscope was equipped with a handheld mount so it could be used for observation, signaling, or mounted on a carbine.

With the surrender of Japan around the corner the research into the infrared devices was pretty much shelved until about 1947 when the M3 development started. This is based on progress reports from the R&D lab of the Army Corps of Engineers at Ft. Belvoir from 1947 -1953 and Ft Benning repots of tests of the M3 Sniperscope dated May 1949

The test M3 had some issues and corrections noted. In 1950 American Optical got the contract to produce what is known as the M3 Sniperscope which was issued in kit form as the Sniperscope Set No. 1, 20,000 volts. (The M1 and M2 operated at only 4250 volts). The tools such as the combination wrench mentioned by Wingnut is a small, pressed metal tool that was specific to the M3 scopes.
In 1951 American optical received another contract for the M3 and a second company, Capehart Farnsworth, received a 1951 contract. Oak Manufacturing made all the power supplies for the production M3 sniperscopes.

With the onset of Korea there was another contract for the M2 scope as it was clear the M3 was not going to be ready fast enough. The 1950 contract M2 Sniperscopes had some details that were different, but functionally the same.

TM 5-9341 Aug 1951 Supersedes the TM 5-9340 1 sept 1944 and Tm 5-9341 15 June 1945 and covers both the M1 and M2 scopes. There was also a TM 5-9341A Aug 1951. The tools changed again, and most tools were now general mechanics tools with 3 or 4 special tools.
By 1950 the M1 and M2 carbine could mount a M1, M2, M3 scope by the means of an adapter. Any M1 or M2 carbine that had a scope mounted on it was designated as an M3 carbine.

The wrench and the screwdriver in Figure 30 from TM 5-9340 (dated 1 September 1944) are obviously not to scale, which is bizarre. While I can see why you would take the comparative proportional scaling approach in the absence of a tool list that actually provides the milled openings sizes of both ends of the DOE wrench, we don't even know which end has the 1/2" opening.
I do think you've done very well to ID the wrench as Duro Circle-X. It does have the right profile, and they did make them in a very dark natural steel, as well as the black oxide.
I do have a lot of questions about the screwdriver.
How do you know the screwdriver was supplied by Duro? (While it seems common sense they would use the same supplier, it is very often NOT the case.)
Where are you getting the 6" OAL and 3/16" flat blade dimensions you cited in your first post? The figure indicates 9/32" blade (an odd tip width for sure) and provides no OAL or shank length.
Similarly, where are you getting the 3613 and 3614 P/N's from? The tools are labeled J-61 and J-64 in the figure. If there is an SNL or parts list on the page your buddy has scanned for you, post that. Post the whole page.
Those J- numbers imply a J-62 and a J-63. What are those tools? Are they listed elsewhere? Are they shown in a different figure? They may help identify the DOE wrench and screwdriver. How many tools are there in the kit, and what are they? You're being too judicious, revealing too little. If you want to maximize our chances for helping, show us everything you have.

Deep breath,
from my limited viewing of the X-circle wrenches it appears the X is always on the larger side. The size of the X seems pretty consistent, so a large wrench has a small appearing X. From this is how I figured the manual was in error on what the wrench was for.

Initially I tried to scale the wrench picture and I felt the bottom of the wrench, as pictured above, was the ½ end. I thought a 1725 because of the screwdriver, but as you point out the scale is off. This is why I made the original post to see if a X-circle 1725 exists.

After posting I enlarged the picture and calculated both ends as ½ inch and then measured the other end to figure what size the wrench was. There is a flaw in doing this as if the picture was taken at a slight angle, it would throw things off. My calculations brought me very close to the 1025 wrench which has a 19/32 end, or a 1725B with a 9/16 end. However, the light switch has a 9/16 nut and there is no listing of a tool to service this, this has me believing the 1725B would have to be the correct wrench.

The screwdrivers I scaled the picture and calculated from the known tip size.

for clarity there are 2 different screwdrivers in the manual. The one next to the wrench is not the one I think a possible Indestro. The manual separated the tools for the power supply and the telescope. I did not assume the first screwdriver was a Indestro because of the wrench. There are many other tools of other brands, and I did search them all lightly. Over a year or two I looked online at screwdrivers in the little spare time I have and never found anything close. I recently found a picture of a Indestro screwdriver on this forum that is very similar and marked Indestro.

Screwdriver on left from manual, screwdriver on right from these forums. You can see it is marked indestro. Has the same general shape and has the lines in the grooves of the handle. Click on pic to enlarge.

The other screwdriver I have no clue on other than the 9/32 tip and approximately 6 ½” overall length based on scaling.


The 3613 and 3614 part numbers were from a display board of Indestro screwdrivers from a catalog that was from just before the war. A post war catalog did not have as many screwdrivers listed.

The J-53 to J-67 numbers all refer to tools and supplies in the manual with some K, N and P prefix numbers thrown in. Hardware used a U prefix, elsewhere in the manual you would look up the number and find the description. Some info was thorough, other were vague to no information.
For J-64, End wrench, ½”. Box No. 36D, Indestro Mfg Co. Chicago Ill. Quan. 1
P-69 White shellac, Box 36I, 2 oz

All the letter prefix numbers are Electronic Labs (EL) part numbers. They had the contract to make the electronics. Sperry Gyroscope made the telescope, and they had their own part numbers listed.
The manual crosses the EL numbers to some items to manufacturers numbers, some to Frankfort Arsenal Numbers.

Lastly…
I would love to see the full article from the Infantry School Quarterly. If you have not yet surmised, I am in way deep on the Infrared scopes and Gen -0 devices!

Research has yielded many photos of related items, but nothing on the M1 scope tools other than what is in the manual. Tools do not seem to be something there are lots of pictures to be found. Screwdrivers in general seem to be vague in many manuals
From what I understand there are documents in storage in the basement at either Ft Lee or Ft Leonard Wood that I would love to dig through.

Here is a Jeep picture being used a s a M1 and M2 battery charging station.

And we were talking about a wrench and screwdriver........

Shameless plug, Looking for:
TM 5-9340 Aug 1944
TM 5-9341 June 1945
ENG 9-9341 July 1945
TM 5-9341A Aug 1951
1725B circle X Duro wrench
Interested in early IR devices not in my collection.

[Wingnutt]

I am familiar with Ft. Belvoir’s development of the M3 Sniperscope. The big question is if the one on display was one of the 24 prototypes made by Hillyer Engineering or a production version?

I'll find out.

However, the light switch has a 9/16 nut and there is no listing of a tool to service this, this has me believing the 1725B would have to be the correct wrench.

Good copy, and makes a lot of sense.

...for clarity there are 2 different screwdrivers in the manual. The one next to the wrench is not the one I think a possible Indestro.

Thanks for clarifying.

For J-64, End wrench, ½”. Box No. 36D, Indestro Mfg Co. Chicago Ill. Quan. 1

Very strange nomenclature.

I would love to see the full article from the Infantry School Quarterly.

Linked here.

Here is a Jeep picture being used a s a M1 and M2 battery charging station.

That's a neat shot.

Shameless plug, Looking for:
1725B circle X Duro wrench

I will check my stash. I don't tend to pick up Circle-X in any sizes outside the five (5) Jeep and 6th GMTK size (33C), despite them being wartime, but there are always some straphangers and stowaways.