FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
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mrbill
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by mrbill » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:42 am

Wingnutt wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:54 am
Tin Medic wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:20 pm
...41-B-305-500, 3/8 dr. with no mfger marks.
We might be able to make some hay with this one...!

It is included in the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4 as a 53/8-inch drive 5" long extension bar, with the following spec ref: Type VII, Class B, Style 1, Ord. Spec. TAC ES No 702s. That doesn't tell us much.

But the same J-4 also includes a 41-B-305-700 (3/8 ext., 12" long) and a 4-B-305-723 (3/8 ext., 18" long). Those do not have the TAC ES specs. They have mfgr's specs. The -700 is attributed to Snap-On (F-11) and the -723 to Plomb (5263).

Does your -500 look like it could be a Snap-On or a Plomb?

Please post close-ups of the entire extension (not just the marking), the head, and the drive end.
Wright made the 41-B-305-500 in 1943. Can't say if the FSN tags were from re-packs or not, but see this in The Wright Stuff

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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:02 am

mrbill wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:42 am
Wright made the 41-B-305-500 in 1943. Can't say if the FSN tags were from re-packs or not, but see this in The Wright Stuff
Thanks, Bill. I missed that or it didn't sink in. So Wright was clearly making them in 1943 and not stamping the FSN. Someone (maybe Snap-On and Plomb, remains to be seen by compairson) was making them and stamping the FSN, maybe during wartime, but maybe not. We've never seen a Snap-On or Plomb or any other mfgr branded 3/8 ext with an FSN as far as I know, which may imply that Tin's example is a post-war contract wrench.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:03 am

Steve (gpw_42),
The Navy FSN on Don's knife should be R41-K-455. If it's something different, Don will correct me. I don't think there's enough documentation on these to help us one way or another. That is the wartime FSN for that kind of knife, with the Navy "R" prefix, and the wooden scales are also dated to WWII, of course, but they were also wooden on knives in the KW era, just before the 11-digit FSN was ushered in.

Some of Don's other items present some great discussion points.

I don't remember seeing the GARDNER 41-W-624 before. Interesting, especially since the FSN is forged-in, rather than stamped. Both methods require a die, but a forge die implies a bigger undertaking. It would be even more interesting, and of course more compelling if we saw that FSN forged on a major verified wartime mfgr (e.g., Duro-Chrome, Barcalo, etc). I will look up Gardner in the WPB MWSC tonight. The name does not appear in the ORD 5.

I've given my thoughts on the Diamalloy before. It is a good prompt for the care we need to take with this analysis and the ripple effect dilemma we may have with some of these examples. Irrespective of the FSN, it would be considered a post-war wrench with that horseshoe logo on it. If we consider it wartime because of the FSN, then we would have to consider all Diamalloy adjustables with horseshoe logos as wartime, subverting our dating methodology. That's why I think Don's wrench belongs in the category of examples evidencing a prevalence for late war and post-war FSN usage.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by d42jeep » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:32 am

The reason that I believe the 8" Diamalloy wrench to be early war is that I think it was made before the horseshoe logo was removed but after the metal restrictions took effect. Every prewar or postwar Diamalloy adjustable wrench was chrome plated, as far as I know. I suppose that there could have been a special postwar contract for plain finish wrenches with the FSN stamped in but that seems a bit of a stretch. I added the FSNs to most all of my images after your suggestion. The Gardner wrench remains a mystery.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:05 am

d42jeep wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:32 am
The reason that I believe the 8" Diamalloy wrench to be early war is that I think it was made before the horseshoe logo was removed but after the metal restrictions took effect. Every prewar or postwar Diamalloy adjustable wrench was chrome plated, as far as I know. I suppose that there could have been a special postwar contract for plain finish wrenches with the FSN stamped in but that seems a bit of a stretch.
I guess I see the possibility of a gray area transition period, before Diamond removed the logo, but I don't understand what that has to do with metal restrictions. I just assumed the logo was removed for a no frills approach to wartime contract production. They could've used the same dies regardless of the steel composition or the plating.

EDIT: To clarify, I see what you mean. You're postulating that they stopped plating their adjustables in late 41, to include government contracts, but didn't decide to re-tool with a new die in which the horseshoe logo was no longer present, until sometime later. I don't know how probable it is for them to be re-tooling in the middle of wartime contract production. I've always associated the wrenches without the logo as made with dies made explicitly for military contract production. I could be wrong.

EDIT2: FWIW, Diamond had nine (9) wartime contracts in the MWSC books, worth $706,000 in total, with the first (QMC, $99,000) awarded on February 1942 and the last (ORD, $68,000) awarded October 1944.

I do have to disagree with you about post-war being a stretch though. We do see industry go almost immediately back to plating for commercial sales, but a lot of military tools in the immediate post-war and KW era are still painted, plain steel, or even black oxide, including adjustables (I have a few different brands). They are distinguished from wartime era wrenches by their style and markings. A number of post-war Billings and Fairmount DOE wrenches that pop up here quite often with a wartime finish, but different shape or markings, are a good example. I think some parts of the Army at least apparently thought they could get by with painted, unfinished or black oxide for quite some time before we see plated start showing up in military issue again.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by d42jeep » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:18 pm

Wingnutt wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:05 am
d42jeep wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:32 am
The reason that I believe the 8" Diamalloy wrench to be early war is that I think it was made before the horseshoe logo was removed but after the metal restrictions took effect. Every prewar or postwar Diamalloy adjustable wrench was chrome plated, as far as I know. I suppose that there could have been a special postwar contract for plain finish wrenches with the FSN stamped in but that seems a bit of a stretch.
I guess I see the possibility of a gray area transition period, before Diamond removed the logo, but I don't understand what that has to do with metal restrictions. I just assumed the logo was removed for a no frills approach to wartime contract production. They could've used the same dies regardless of the steel composition or the plating.

EDIT: To clarify, I see what you mean. You're postulating that they stopped plating their adjustables in late 41, to include government contracts, but didn't decide to re-tool with a new die in which the horseshoe logo was no longer present, until sometime later. I don't know how probable it is for them to be re-tooling in the middle of wartime contract production. I've always associated the wrenches without the logo as made with dies made explicitly for military contract production. I could be wrong.
I would have expected them to use the dies without the horseshoe for postwar plain steel production, but who really knows? Plomb certainly retooled to pebble finish for their ratchets and flex handles during the war and removing the horseshoe would have probably been a pretty quick and easy change for Diamond. I'm not sure that we will ever know for sure, but I have several Diamond adjustable wrenches without the horseshoe but I've never seen another with the FSN.
-Don
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:04 pm

It's a keeper for sure.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by d42jeep » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:34 am

Here is a tool that I suspect most GMTK collectors would like to have in their sets, but I only know of one that has been found and it went to another well known collector's set in the southern US. :( This tool first appeared in the 1938 MVMTS and was used until the last GMTK was made. I don't know if they continued on after the war.
-Don
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:15 am

d42jeep wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:34 am
I don't know if they continued on after the war.
It wasn't in the 1980 set! :lol:

Seriously, this is a good one, because of the whole dastardly diameter dilemma.

As we have discovered and spec'd out (thanks to Tin Medic) on another thread, since 41-B-155 is a 1/2-inch in diameter, it won't fit through the tommy bar hole in the hinged handles made by several of the other mfgrs whose sockets and drive tools are pictured in GMTK figures, which are often 7/16" or even 3/8". Even though the G-61 Master Mechanics kit doesn't include any or show any, the ORD 5 includes a 41-B-153-400, citing BF-4092, which is the part number for Bonney's 1/2-inch drive tommy bar, which was 3/8" in diameter. The ORD 5 also includes 41-B-153-100 and cites BF-T32, which is 5/16" in diameter, intended for 3/8-inch drive sets. The G-61 includes both 1/2- and 3/8-inch drive sets. It seems like the G-61 Emergency Repair Truck leads took the approach of the tommy bar being integral to the hinged handle, as in 'it will come with the kits.' Which I also suspect happened with the GMTK, despite the spec.

In my opinion, that all bodes well for Phil's FSN sole survivor being wartime, and probably early wartime if I had to guess, rather than post-war. It seems inconceivable they would've kept up the initial approach given the diameter variety of holes/bars from industry for the same drive set.

Thoughts?
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Silly's MB » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:58 am

I am not sure if this helps or hinders the Diamalloy dating. I acquired this Signal Corps wrench marked TL 111, it is a horseshoe marked Diamalloy with a possible Cadmium finish. It has a bit of a copper tinge under the finish. I have always thought it to be post war.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Hartofoak » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:53 am

That FSN'd bar of Phil's is very nice! I think your adjustable maybe nickel on copper Roger.
Here's an excuse to again mention the only "TAXI" + FSN marked tool I have ever come across but do not own. As the former is the earlier system it does seem possible that this is a wartime example of an FSN marked piece ...
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=226541&hilit=hamme ... 5#p1609752
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by lucas » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:05 pm

Here is another brass (Taxi #) hammer on eBay (not mine) that looked like it has been thru a major battle using tools as weapons: https://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-WWII-ORDIN ... Swt7hZcUVb
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:13 pm

Hartofoak wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:53 am
That FSN'd bar of Phil's is very nice! I think your adjustable maybe nickel on copper Roger.
Here's an excuse to again mention the only "TAXI" + FSN marked tool I have ever come across but do not own. As the former is the earlier system it does seem possible that this is a wartime example of an FSN marked piece ...
Agreed, as you know from the previous thread, and I would go even further, Cliff. Highly probable. The Ordnance Dept's TAXI system barely made it through the war. By 1944/45, it was already being cited less and less in fewer and fewer TM's and SNL's in comparison to 1942, and the Ordnance Dept was already committed to their own attempts to standardize on the Official Stock Number. I find it highly unlikely to see them stamping brass hammers with a TAXI number and an FSN at that time.

By the way, I will go into much more detail at the end of my 1939 Fed Specs thread, which needs a good update, but I have something to report on the historicity of the FSN itself. As you all know, I have been looking like mad for later specs (preferably 1944, to get past changes due to early WPB M, L, and E orders) to no avail. I have made some interesting discoveries with Google Books, but not in the way you might expect. In summary for now and on this thread, I'll just say that I have been able to establish that the Federal Standard Stock Catalog was in play from 1930 to 1953, which jibes with what we know about the establishment of the 11-digit (5120-XXX-XXXX) NSN system.
lucas wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:05 pm
Here is another brass (Taxi #) hammer on eBay (not mine) that looked like it has been thru a major battle using tools as weapons.
HAHA! Indeed. The price is just as painful to look at! 40 smackers for a hammer worn down to the nubs, all because of a TAXI number!
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by d42jeep » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:13 am

Silly's MB wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:58 am
I am not sure if this helps or hinders the Diamalloy dating. I acquired this Signal Corps wrench marked TL 111, it is a horseshoe marked Diamalloy with a possible Cadmium finish. It has a bit of a copper tinge under the finish. I have always thought it to be post war.
Roger,
I'm not sure about the exact vintage of your wrench, but I would say that it is just as possible that it is early war as my FSN marked example. Here is a picture of mine with a chrome plated prewar 8" Diamalloy above and a 6" wartime Diamalloy (no horseshoe) below.
-Don
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by d42jeep » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:30 am

mrbill wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:42 am
Wingnutt wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:54 am
Tin Medic wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:20 pm
...41-B-305-500, 3/8 dr. with no mfger marks.
We might be able to make some hay with this one...!

It is included in the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4 as a 53/8-inch drive 5" long extension bar, with the following spec ref: Type VII, Class B, Style 1, Ord. Spec. TAC ES No 702s. That doesn't tell us much.

But the same J-4 also includes a 41-B-305-700 (3/8 ext., 12" long) and a 4-B-305-723 (3/8 ext., 18" long). Those do not have the TAC ES specs. They have mfgr's specs. The -700 is attributed to Snap-On (F-11) and the -723 to Plomb (5263).

Does your -500 look like it could be a Snap-On or a Plomb?

Please post close-ups of the entire extension (not just the marking), the head, and the drive end.
Wright made the 41-B-305-500 in 1943. Can't say if the FSN tags were from re-packs or not, but see this in The Wright Stuff

Bill
It seems as if I have one of these 3/8" drive extensions as well. Here are a couple of pictures of it but I'm not sure that they will help to identify the manufacturer.
-Don
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41-B-305-500 3/8" drive extension
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