FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

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FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by gpw_42 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:59 am

Gents,

Based on the discussion in the thread here: http://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=291261 about production dates of FSN marked tools, I put together this rudimentary spreadsheet.
180817Slide 1.jpg
180817Slide 1.jpg (192.68 KiB) Viewed 1850 times
18017_Slide 2.JPG
18017_Slide 2.JPG (181.53 KiB) Viewed 1850 times
I would like to get:

1) others' insight and suggestions about what else needs to be tracked on this document (entries across the top) about these tools
2) recommendations on tools to be added to the spreadsheet (hopefully with links or photos!). Post here on the thread, or PM me, either way.

I know that I've been bitten on the 41-S-1076 screwdrivers. I'm thinking that if we can tighten down a format, it'll then be worth scouring the G and other sources for info on tools marked with FSN, and then trying to figure out their production dates.

As you can see from the formatting of the pic attached to this message, I'm still learning to get slides into .jpg format so they can be posted. Thanks to Wingnutt for the quick tutorial on how to do that!

Thoughts?
Steve
Last edited by gpw_42 on Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:04 am

gpw_42 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:59 am
Thoughts?
Rudimentary or not, I'm just glad somebody else is a "chart guy"! :) Because I needed another chart to maintain like I need another hole in my headers!

Figuring out the production dates is probably a holy grail. Just having a single thread where we can park all the examples (rather than hunt and pecking for them through the search engine) and discuss them as a subject (rather than the tool itself), and where YOU can add them to YOUR spreadsheet (dang it feels good just saying that...) is a big plus.

Thanks for taking this on.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by mudbox » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:35 am

Here's an image of a Hamilton Metal Products 41-B-1840 FSN marked box.

Image

Here's a NOS box of Arcturus wrenches. Presumably marked (like the others) on the shank with the FSNs

Image

Image

Early (5 hinge knuckle) Walden box with faint remnants of FSN stamp

Image

I don't have any, but there's an ignition wrench set out there, stamped with the FSN...

Williams and APCO Mossberg seemed to like to stamp the FSN on hand tools. I don't have any examples to share.

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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:50 pm

Steve,

As we dive into this deeper, I'm thinking you may need to modify the column headings. Or be prepared to use question marks in entries or less definitive language. Or multiple rows for the same tool presenting different findings and conclusions. Bottom line is I KNOW we will NOT have consensus on "ERA" for lots of examples. And, it's not necessary to have consensus. The importance is having a place to capture all of the examples and the arguments and evidence either way (wartime, not wartime, early war, late war, post-war, etc), again, so we don't have to go fishing in other topical threads.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:51 pm

mudbox wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:35 am
Here's an image of a Hamilton Metal Products 41-B-1840 FSN marked box.
To round out the Hamilton story, here is a thread documenting a Hamilton box with irrefutable wartime stenciling and no FSN. Thread also includes an image of the MVMTS from the October 1942 SNL N-19, showing a Hamilton box with no FSN.
mudbox wrote:Here's a NOS box of Arcturus wrenches. Presumably marked (like the others) on the shank with the FSNs
I may have already done this, but I will look up the contract number in the WPB Major War Supply Contracts reference.
mudbox wrote:I don't have any, but there's an ignition wrench set out there, stamped with the FSN...
I have a few that I can snap later, but Greg Hines has a full set on the 41-W-900 thread. Cliff has a near- or complete set. Or Steve can just post his. I know he has a few in one of the most authentic mixed sets I have ever seen! :)
mudbox wrote:Williams and APCO Mossberg seemed to like to stamp the FSN on hand tools. I don't have any examples to share.
Thanks for the prompt. I have a Williams hinge handle and a pair of GMTK Mossberg extensions. Here they are, along with an unbranded 3/8-inch drive speeder.

Image

Here’s a zoom on the FSNs:

Image

From top to bottom, are:
- the unknown 3/8-inch drive speed handle (4-H-1507-95)
- the pair of GMTK 1/2-inch drive bars (extensions)(41-B-307, and 41-B-305),
- and the Williams GMTK 1/2-inch drive hinged handle (41-H-1503).

I am convinced the speeder is wartime. If we could identify the mfgr, it might help date it, but it's bare steel and therefore most likely wartime in my opinion.

The FSN actually helped me ID the Williams hinged handle, which as you can see, is missing the business end. Someone cut it off, I am guessing after it was no longer functional for whatever reason (e.g., broken). To be objective, I am not certain about the Williams being wartime. It doesn’t have the script underline logo or the MADE < W > USA logo. We do see that blocky WILLIAMS logo on things, but typically not on wartime Superrench pieces. Also, note how the stamping is a lot crisper than the other stampings (Mossberg extensions and unknown speeder). So I'm on fence on that one. And it could help in the long run with comparisons to other stampings.

The extensions with the Mossberg <M> logo to the left of the FSNs have traces of cadmium plating and crude hand forged heads. I don't know if they were still doing that late war, but I would suspect early war.

Image
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:15 pm

Click here for a thread on a 41-W-2068 S-shaped DBE wrench.

The forum is pretty much littered with arguments about the 41-S-1076 shank-stamped IRWIN screwdrivers, including summaries of the 1950 conclusion and rationale/evidence that Fred and I included in White, Vol 5, Chap 40, pages 201-203. One instance of that summary can be found here. Our conclusions are confirmed by the findings of a study of under-handle cast markings first undertaken by Viking27 (Hinrik Steinsson) and Hartofoak (Cliff). That study showed that the cast markings of IRWIN screwdrivers with ink stamps on the handle, and no stamps on the shank, and those of IRWIN screwdrivers with no ink stamps on the handle (thought to be ink stamps worn off) and no stamps on the shank, are the same. Cast markings of all other kinds of IRWIN screwdrivers with stamps on the shanks - including FSNs, are different. That study can be found here. (Steve - I would summarize this in the 'Evidence' column as something like "M38 factory documents/IRWIN cast markings".)

To be objective, an argument to the contrary holds that a pair of IRWIN screwdrivers with the FSN stamped on the shank and "USAAF" stamped in the wooden handle are wartime (on the idea that the USAAF was defunct in 1947).

As in all cases, collectors can decided for themselves.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by gpw_42 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:36 am

Mud and Wingnutt,

Thanks to you both for your help in getting this going. As you've both pointed out, there's tons of DATA here on the G, trying to get it into useful information is the point I was trying to accomplish by starting this thread. I'm hoping that some more long-term collectors will contribute tools to be listed, as well.

I'll email you both the current status of the spreadsheet, in an effort to keep the "sausage making" (messy process) behind the scenes...I've made some changes as suggested above. I can see the spreadsheet rapidly becoming multiple pages in length, depending on how fast folks contribute FSN marked tools to be listed. Greg, your point about likely never reaching consensus on some of the production dates is a good one, which I didn't realize until I started finding some of these posts across the G.
mudbox wrote:I don't have any, but there's an ignition wrench set out there, stamped with the FSN...
wingnutt wrote:I have a few that I can snap later, but Greg Hines has a full set on the 41-W-900 thread. Cliff has a near- or complete set. Or Steve can just post his. I know he has a few in one of the most authentic mixed sets I have ever seen! :)
Greg, do you mean these? :)
41-W-900 Ignition Wrenches.jpg
41-W-900 Ignition Wrenches.jpg (177.83 KiB) Viewed 2577 times
Ignition Wrench Set.jpg
Ignition Wrench Set.jpg (158.04 KiB) Viewed 2577 times
Those 41-W-900 marked wrenches are all different, because 41-W-900 is the FSN for the set, not its components. Top to bottom:
7/32 x 1/4
7/32 x 1/4 (openings reversed)
15/64 x ?/64 (I think 13/64)

Steve

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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:01 pm

The ignition duty wrenches may be a revealing case study. They were not specified by individual wrench in a GMTK SNL until April 1945, and, consequently, that's the first time the FSN's for them (41-W-1468-3xx) show up in an SNL. That doesn't mean they didn't each have their own FSN before that, but it is interesting that they were specified only by set (41-W-900) until then, that the only examples we find each bear the set FSN, and that no examples with an individual wrench FSN has been found. Based on all that, it's hard to not reach one possible conclusion, tentatively, that the 41-W-900 stamped ignition wrenches are early to mid war, not late war. On the other hand, the Army may have always considered the set number was good enough. And in the KW era, they weren't marked with the 11-digit FSN, as far as I know, only the pouch was, with the set number.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Tin Medic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:58 pm

A couple pieces from today.
2017-10-21 17.57.29.jpg
2017-10-21 17.57.29.jpg (18.44 KiB) Viewed 2552 times
2017-10-21 17.58.19.jpg
2017-10-21 17.58.19.jpg (66.57 KiB) Viewed 2552 times
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by gpw_42 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:34 am

.
Last edited by gpw_42 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by gpw_42 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:34 am

Steve,

Is the bottom a 41-B-305-800? Is it 1/2" or 3/8" drive? Are there any manufacturer marks on either?

Thanks,
Steve

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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Tin Medic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:20 pm

Steve, it a 41-B-305-500, 3/8 dr. with no mfger marks.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by d42jeep » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:36 am

Here are some pictures of FSN marked tools that I have or have had.
-Don
Attachments
IMG_6245.JPG
Ignition wrench FSN marking 41-W-900
IMG_6245.JPG (84.72 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6257.JPG
Camillus NAF FSN marked screwdriver/knife R41-K-455
IMG_6257.JPG (79.04 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6255.JPG
May be postwar as Gardner is not on Wingnutt's list
IMG_6255.JPG (80.46 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6254.JPG
41-W-624
IMG_6254.JPG (100.15 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6244.JPG
Gardner 11/16" X 5/8" shorty DBE wrench
IMG_6244.JPG (75.19 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6243.JPG
41-W-624
IMG_6243.JPG (85.93 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6242.JPG
41-B-307 Mossberg (Same as Wingnutt's)
IMG_6242.JPG (123.58 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6240.JPG
Diamond 8" adjustable 41-W-486
IMG_6240.JPG (85.55 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6239.JPG
41-W-486 plain finish. Non wartime Diamalloy wrenches are chrome plated
IMG_6239.JPG (198.79 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
IMG_6238.JPG
Diamalloy that I believe was made in early '42
IMG_6238.JPG (74.34 KiB) Viewed 2487 times
Last edited by d42jeep on Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:54 am

Tin Medic wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:20 pm
...41-B-305-500, 3/8 dr. with no mfger marks.
We might be able to make some hay with this one...!

It is included in the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4 as a 53/8-inch drive 5" long extension bar, with the following spec ref: Type VII, Class B, Style 1, Ord. Spec. TAC ES No 702s. That doesn't tell us much.

But the same J-4 also includes a 41-B-305-700 (3/8 ext., 12" long) and a 4-B-305-723 (3/8 ext., 18" long). Those do not have the TAC ES specs. They have mfgr's specs. The -700 is attributed to Snap-On (F-11) and the -723 to Plomb (5263).

Does your -500 look like it could be a Snap-On or a Plomb?

Please post close-ups of the entire extension (not just the marking), the head, and the drive end.
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Re: FSN Marked Tools & Their Dates of Production

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:03 am

All,

If you're going to post examples, please describe the tool and transcribe the FSN. Neither the tool or the number is as obvious as you may think from the photo you are posting.
Tin Medic wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:58 pm
A couple pieces from today.
I have two of those, one of them posted above (and a second is in my last flea market haul). Both are APCO Mossberg, identified by the <M> logo. I see that yours is caked in cosmo, but does it have the <M> logo? I am guessing so, as the construction and the font on that FSN stamp is identical to my examples. Please confirm.
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