MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Sat May 07, 2016 4:58 am

So to be clear, the only one identified so far that has 30 pitches and matches all the specs is the Starrett 473 then, regardless of shape?

I have no reasonable source for this stuff apart from the poor images and vague descriptions on a well-known auction site. I seldom find anything worthwhile for sale locally but it does happen every now and again. Only having a definite manufacturer and code number can stop you ending up with a lot of unsatisfactory purchases.

Working on it
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer


User avatar
Wingnutt
G-Lieutenant General
G-Lieutenant General
Posts: 5029
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:17 pm
Location:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Wingnutt » Sat May 07, 2016 7:24 am

Gordon_M wrote:So to be clear, the only one identified so far that has 30 pitches and matches all the specs is the Starrett 473 then, regardless of shape?
Well, if you're excluding the Union-made model Don just picked up (because it has no model number to search for in on-line auction shopping), then yes, as far as I know.

I was initially surprised to find out from Don that Brown & Sharpe did not make one to these particular specs, but given the fact that Goodell-Pratt and Lufkin did not make one to these particular specs, either, I'm less surprised, and I am starting to think the Starrett 473 may have been the spec standard the ORD used. (Not to dismiss Union; I put them in the same category as General - bonafide supplier, but not necessarily industry leader.) To clarify what I said earlier about Lufkin, they made four (4) different screw pitch gauges - 8-48 (22), 4-36 (24), 8-80 (28), and 3-38 (28). It seemed more to me at first glance, but they made a set of those four with and without a locking nut, same number and size of pitches. Also, all of Lufkin's gauges had a case that took the same shape as their leafs: a lazy S. GP made three different pitch gauges: 9-40 (22), 4-30 (24), and 4-42 (30). I don't have access to a Brown & Sharpe catalog, but, while they did not make a 30-pitch 6-60 gauge, I'm assuming that they did make a few different gauges offering a low, mid, or high range of threads per inch?

I did try to look at this from the application perspective...

The tap and die sets in the upper echelon kits ran from 8-20NC and 14-28NF. And, there was a pipe thread tap and die set (41-T-2023) in the 4th echelon No. 2 set that ran from 11-1/2 to 27 TPI. Unless I'm missing something, the need to quickly identify fasteners with 6, 7, and 30 through 60 pitch with this gauge was greater than the need to fabricate, at least outside of a shop with a precision lathe or milling machine.

Also, one more correction: there was another thread gauge! 41-G-270, in the 4th Echelon No 2 set. It had 51 pitches between 4 and 84. Check that in the Brown & Sharpe, because I can't find that combination in the Starrett, Goodell-Pratt or Lufkin.

And finally, I had to smirk when paging through the Lufkin catalog and seeing them refer to the black finish on their folding steel rules as "Nubian." Politically incorrect today, to say the least.
TEMPORARY DUTY

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Sat May 07, 2016 7:52 am

thanks for that. Did the Union cover all the specified pitches though, or did it just have 30 blades? There was a reasonably priced Starrett 476 ( not 473 ) on the auction site so that is in the post to me now. Since the 473 was absolutely to spec I expect the 476 will be slightly off, but we'll see ( anyone have the pitch listing for the 476 handy? )

Many of the other tools will be easy enough, but that 3-fold 36" rule is proving tricky.
Last edited by Gordon_M on Sun May 08, 2016 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
Wingnutt
G-Lieutenant General
G-Lieutenant General
Posts: 5029
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:17 pm
Location:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Wingnutt » Sun May 08, 2016 4:52 am

Gordon_M wrote:Did the Union cover all the specified pitches though, or did it just have 30 blades?
I'm assuming it matches the spec, since his first one not matching the spec was the reason Don gave for buying another one.
Gordon_M wrote:( anyone have the pitch listing for the 476 handy? )
It's not in the 1948. Henry has the 1938.
Gordon_M wrote:Many of the other tools will be easy enough, but that 3-fold 36" rule is proving tricky.
I've NEVER seen one at a flea. The scraper and the scriber are pretty rare at my fleas, too. Have to run into a Gerstner that's full. (Not that I am collecting a machinist's set, per se - but I am collecting everything upper echelon I can find to flip to you guys.) That's the trade off. At fleas you get to pick everything up and inspect it close-up, but it's hit and miss in terms of what will be there. On eBay, a lot of these items are constantly there, but it's often difficult to inspect them for vintage and correct features.
TEMPORARY DUTY

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Sun May 08, 2016 5:54 am

Wingnutt wrote:
Gordon_M wrote:Many of the other tools will be easy enough, but that 3-fold 36" rule is proving tricky.
I've NEVER seen one at a flea. The scraper and the scriber are pretty rare at my fleas, too. Have to run into a Gerstner that's full. (Not that I am collecting a machinist's set, per se - but I am collecting everything upper echelon I can find to flip to you guys.) That's the trade off. At fleas you get to pick everything up and inspect it close-up, but it's hit and miss in terms of what will be there. On eBay, a lot of these items are constantly there, but it's often difficult to inspect them for vintage and correct features.
Scribers are up there. One thing to note is that there is a basic scriber of that shape, then a two-part screw together housing that forms the body on some configurations. If you buy a height gauge ( block / tower / clamp / scriber ) you do not usually get the body section.

Scrapers are not uncommon, but getting the right configuration, and a US-made one, is more tricky. I've finished the first page except for that !@£$%^ folding rule.
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
d42jeep
G-Brigadier General
G-Brigadier General
Posts: 2290
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Albany/Fallen Leaf Lake, CA
Contact:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by d42jeep » Sun May 08, 2016 6:29 am

Here are the '41 Brown and Sharpe thread pitch listings.
-Don
Edit: I found a Union catalog listing for the thread pitch gauge.
Attachments
77479A53-4C39-45DA-91AB-E0AFB40E117F.jpeg
77479A53-4C39-45DA-91AB-E0AFB40E117F.jpeg (29.25 KiB) Viewed 1835 times
image.jpeg
Brown & Sharpe 1941
image.jpeg (151.62 KiB) Viewed 2400 times
Last edited by d42jeep on Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ford GPW 76344 DOD 11/42 Built in Richmond, CA

henry501
G-First Lieutenant
G-First Lieutenant
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:53 am
Location:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by henry501 » Sun May 08, 2016 3:09 pm

Gordon,

Per the 1938 catalog the 476 won't meet the more detailed specs. It does have 30 pitches but it is the Whitworth scale and goes from 3 1/2 to 60. Also it does not have the 11 1/2 or 27 1/2 pitches. As to whether it will meet the earlier less detailed specs... Well yes, i guess it could (30 pitches) but it also has the S shape like the 473 and I think that being graduated in the Whitworth scale is enough of a notable functionality detail that it would have been a noted spec even in the earlier less detailed military specs. I look at it as distinctive enough to be analagous to metric versus SAE and thus likely would have been mentioned. Unless... Starret started supplying the 476 to the military and when the machinists finally got a hold of them they said "hey these are useless because they are in the Whitworth scale." so then the military had to provide more detailed specs. so that the machinists could get the gauge they really needed.

Hopefully others will chime, in especially on the Whitworth thing, as I'm not at all positive on my assertion in that regard.

Thanks,
Henry

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Sun May 08, 2016 9:31 pm

Thanks Henry, I'll have to get a 473 as well then
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:24 pm

I'm chipping away at the contents list for this tool set, but there is one notable omission on the listing and I can't pin it down.

Any machinist would not leave home without machinists blue marking dye. It's so obvious it probably falls into the category of "too obvious to mention" that it isn't listed on the contents. I know it is a consumable, but then so is stuff like hacksaw blades.

So, no problem, just visit a well-known auction site and look for machinists blue, or engineers blue, or marking blue, or dye, or whatever? No results worth mentioning. There's plenty of it here in the UK, all British, but I can't find an American manufacturer, brand name, type, whatever.

So, USA people, what do you call engineers blue round your way please? Who made it back in the day ? anyone have any spare, or at least a brand name I can search for?

( still looking for a top tray for the box Tim swapped me too ... )
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
d42jeep
G-Brigadier General
G-Brigadier General
Posts: 2290
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Albany/Fallen Leaf Lake, CA
Contact:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by d42jeep » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:55 pm

Back in the 60s and 70s, I used a product called Dykem Blue. I'm not sure when it came out but it was very popular. Here is a Wikipedia link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marking_blue

-Don
Ford GPW 76344 DOD 11/42 Built in Richmond, CA

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:08 pm

Thanks Don, that's what I needed. I had a rake round on that name, and came up with this image from an old auction - I think this is what I should be looking for:
DYKEM.jpg
DYKEM.jpg (216.53 KiB) Viewed 2313 times
... small glass bottle in steel container looks period to me. Anyone have one they don't need?

thanks again
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Not required in the contents list

Post by Gordon_M » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:27 am

Not required in the contents list, but too nice to pass up. Lufkin 513, 0 - 3" depth micrometer, with original box and wrench. Latest patent dates from the mid '20s and covers the lock ring arrangement near the base.
LUF5131.jpg
LUF5131.jpg (231.42 KiB) Viewed 2290 times
There are plenty of these available, but this one was in the UK and the price was right. I'm looking for an inside micrometer to match it. They are available too, but I'm watching for a boxed one at the right price.
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
d42jeep
G-Brigadier General
G-Brigadier General
Posts: 2290
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Albany/Fallen Leaf Lake, CA
Contact:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by d42jeep » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:33 pm

Gordon,
I considered putting this Starrett inside micrometer in my set but didn't want to add too many extras, plus I wasn't sure of the vintage. The inside mic in Wingnutt's Class 41 catalog wasn't a Starrett but rather a Brown & Sharpe.
-Don
Attachments
image.jpeg
Starrett inside micrometer
image.jpeg (163.55 KiB) Viewed 2273 times
image.jpeg
Starrett close view
image.jpeg (158.62 KiB) Viewed 2273 times
Ford GPW 76344 DOD 11/42 Built in Richmond, CA

User avatar
Gordon_M
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1840
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:32 am
Location: central and north east Scotland, depending on the day

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by Gordon_M » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:54 pm

I would just have put it in there, for sure. I regard, Starrett, B&S, and Lufkin as functionally interchangeable for all this stuff, and I think in practice most machinists would have ended up with a pile of extras.

My list of sensible / desirable extras would include, but certainly not be limited to:
  • Outside, inside, and depth micrometers, zero to three, or even four inches
    41-G-372 Universal Surface Gauge ( block and tower mount for the scriber ) Lufkin 520 or similar
    41-L-1215 Level, Pocket
    1/4" drive Midget Set
    Machinists' clamps
    Engineers marking blue ( Dykem?)
    Engineers "V" blocks and clamps

I think you could reasonably include most of that without overloading the existing box, and I'm remembering here the specified weight was a lot less than the GMTK, for example. I know none of that is on the list, just my stab at the real world version of what would actually have ended up in the box, and I have not yet considered radius gauges and the like which I probably should have.
Gordon

1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

User avatar
mudbox
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:09 pm
Location:

Re: MY TOOL-SET, MACHINISTS' 41-T-3537

Post by mudbox » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:49 pm

Gordon_M wrote:I regard, Starrett, B&S, and Lufkin as functionally interchangeable for all this stuff...
What about General, weren't they making machinist tools at the time as well? And they have some documented provenance in some of the TMs as well :idea:
-Jason


Post Reply

Return to “G503 Tools & Equipment (Vehicle & Pioneer)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests