ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
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Tin Medic
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Tin Medic » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:02 pm

Not sure how PWA (Pratt & Whitney Aircraft) is considered a manufacturer.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Brett Nicholls » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:06 pm

Hi Wingnutt,
From a quick look at the manufacturers list of note missing are Fairmont, Crescent. I wonder why no code for them.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Brett Nicholls » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:09 pm

Hi Tin Medic,
Maybe they wre considered because of the specialist tools for aircraft maintenance?. I have seen a torque wrench with their brand on it. There is also a "PWA" branded tool on Ebay - whether or not this washow they branded their tools I dont know.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Tin Medic » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:30 pm

Brett, Tools were actually made for them. The PWA code meant is was manufactured for them not by them.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:01 pm

Guys,

I will reply tomorrow. Busy night.

One quick addendum is that I am keeping a few interesting G503 cats in the bag for now. Just for a few more weeks.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Brett Nicholls » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:05 pm

Mmmm. Ok. Thanks for that Tin Medic.

Wingnutt - Cant wait til the Cat's out - Oh the wait is unbearable already..... :roll:

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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by mudbox » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:43 am

So, my brain is spinning a bit from this list... but from a cursory look, it appears as though some manufactures are grossly under-represented in most of our GMTKs, mine for sure.
Namely:
Blackhawk (appears more often than I would have imagined!)
Snap-On
Plomb
Bonney
Stanley - Atha
Herbrand
just to name a few.

Very cool stuff. Thanks for posting it!

Questions about the ignition wrenches... It looks like the 15* & 75* offset wrenches were acceptable as well as the 15* & 60* variety? Am I reading that right?

I'm sure I'll have more questions/comments as I digest this list. :P

Edited to add that it looks as if that 1/4" drive Bonney set Wingnutt recently found is spot on for the spec.

-Jason
Last edited by mudbox on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:38 am

All,

The reason I didn't start blurting data out when I first acquired these ORD 5 SNL's at the end of last year is because I didn't want to create confusion, misleading conclusions, or more questions. It's a lot of information to digest and understand. Other than simply scanning 148 pages (J-2 and J-4, total), which is impossible (they're tightly bound) or taking 148 photographs, which I am not going to do, I also struggled with how to present the data, a lot of which is not relevant to G503 (or G506, etc), or N-19/G-27 ("GMTK").

Obviously, I did a poor job, more explanation is required, and I am thinking I may have to post some pages as examples, so you can all get a better feel for the contents.

I will get to each question one-by-one, but after reading some of them, and some of the comments, there are some things I can see that I need to re-emphasize, so I thank everyone. It will help make this useful for everyone.

The ORD 5 is NOT application specific, like ORD 6, 7, and 8 are. ORD 5 contains ALL Common Tools and Equipment, in alphabetical order, regardless of what vehicle, echelon unit maintenance set, etc, it was used in.

That said, something like that would be way too big to be contained like that, so they separated it into groups of similar tools, by function, contained in several SNL's. You can see these SNL's referenced in other ORD's.

Look at the 11 October 1944 ORD 7 SNL G-503, for example. Column 10 is Note Symbol. Go to the VEHICULAR TOOLS AND EQUIPMENT Common Tools table on pg 11. The "J-15" in column 10 next to the 41-B-15 Bag, tool, refers to ORD 5 SNL J-15. The "J-4" next to the 41-S-1076 SCREWDRIVER refers to the ORD 5 SNL J-4. And so forth.

Ditto for the GMTK manuals, If you go to the July 1944 ORD 6 SNL G-27, all the citations (J-2, J-4, J-6, etc) in Column 1, Notes, next to each item in the SNL are referring to ORD 5 SNL's.

For a sense of the scope of the entire ORD 5, keep in mind that I only have SNL J-2 and J-4. Fortunately for the GMTK guys, those two SNL's happen to cover a large majority of GMTK tools. But not all.

To cover additional common G503 tools (remember, not all of them are common, and if they are, some don't bear an ORD 5 citation) and the rest of the GMTK tools, we would need the following ORD 5 SNL's:

Bag, toolbox - J-15
Fire extinguishers - K-2
Tire pressure gages - J-9
Hammers, pry bars - J-6
Spark plug gage, points gage, steel rule - J-3
Oval sash brush, putty knife - K-1
Wood file handles - J-8
Oiler - J-14

Now to some questions...
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:20 am

Hartofoak wrote:Good to see those "other" (meaning?) manufacturer names include Forsberg and Stanley & Snap-on, which will make some of us very satisfied.
"Other" = Non-GMTK tools of the same kind.

The format for my lists is:

FSN (space) SPECIFICATION (space) NOMENCLATURE

As I reviewed the two ORD 5 SNL's, I only entered the GMTK or G503 pertinent data into Excel, thinking I might want to sort it later. To post it here, I copied and pasted from Excel. The spaces between the FSN, SPECIFICATION, and NOMENCLATURE text in each entry you see above were column borders. Every new line is a new row.

As you look through the lists, you will see that most of the GMTK tools have an Ordnance Engineering Specification (ES), drawing, or part ("taxi") number cited in the SPECIFICATION column, directly following the FSN. Some GMTK tools have a Mfgr's Code in the SPECIFICATION column. As the Note I included a scan of describes, these Mfgr's codes were used by the Ordnance Dept instead of an ORD ES, drawing, or part number. In those cases, the ORD seems to be saying, 'this model tool from this Mfgr is our specification for this tool.'

The Mfgr's codes in the ORD 5 do NOT serve the same function as Mfgr's codes in other ORD's. This not a GMC or a Dodge SNL etc. There is no Mfgr's column and these Mfgr's codes are NOT indicating sole suppliers as in vehicle SNL's. The Ordnance Dept, by their own explanation, is using the Mfgr's tool as a spec.

If the SNL included "other" (non-GMTK) tools of the same kind (e.g., screwdrivers, but not the type of screwdrivers specified for the GMTK; screwdrivers with different FSNs), and those tools cited a Mfgr's Code in the SPECIFICATION column, I wanted to make sure everyone knew that.

So, staying with screwdrivers as an example, the ORD did not cite any Mfgr's codes as specs for the GMTK screwdrivers, citing in all cases ORD ES, drawing, or part numbers as specs. But it did cite Mfgr's codes for Apex, Stanley, etc for other (non-GMTK) screwdrivers.

In the most conservative interpretation, if the ORD 5 is citing a Mfgr and its model number for a certain tool in place of a government spec, that Mfgr is a very safe bet for that tool - at the very least.

In a slightly more liberal interpretation, I think that Mfgr is a safe bet for other tools of the same type.

In the most liberal interpretation, that Mfgr is probably an ORD supplier, period, in general.

In other words, just because they cite an Apex code as a specification for a clutch head screwdriver, doesn't meant they were only buying clutch head screwdrivers from Apex. They were probably buying other screwdrivers from Apex as well. It also doesn't mean they were buying ALL their clutch head screwdrivers from Apex. While they used an Apex tool number as a proxy for a government spec, for whatever reason, they may have been buying clutch head screwdrivers from Bridgeport, Bonney, and others that matched the proxy spec.

So, using data I have already posted, as an example:

41-C-1124 Type II,US Army Spec 17-87A CHISEL, machinists', hand, cold, width of cut 3/4, length, 8 in.
41-C-1168 TBDX1A CHISEL, machinists', hand, diamond point, width of cut 3/8, length, 6 in.

>>> Two of GMTK chisels. The first cites an Army spec number for the spec, the second cites an Ordnance part number (this one a so-called "taxi" type) for the spec. Neither one cited a Mfgr's code as a spec. The ORD was probably buying chisels from several suppliers that made chisels matching the specs.

Mfgrs codes used for other chisels: Stanley Tools - Atha Works

>>> This means that "SLA" (Stanley - Atha) was used as a specification for other chisels in the ORD 5 SNL J-2, but they were chisels of other (non-GMTK) lengths, other (non-GMTK) width cuts, etc.

I took this approach so that everyone may conclude what they want from the data.

In my opinion, I think it's safe to consider Stanley-Atha a supplier of chisels, in general, at the very least, to the Ordnance Dept, to include the GMTK chisels. Because Stanley is also cited for some other tools, in my opinion, I consider them a supplier, in general. I don't think they were the only Mfgr's supplying chisels to the ORD. So I don't exclude other Mfgr's just because their models were not used as a specification for GMTK chisels. NO Mfgr's were. But I certainly giver more credence to other Mfgr's cited in this ORD and in other government references who were known chisel Mfgrs.

As mudbox has already caught on, some Mfgr's codes appear more often, and for a wider variety of tools, than others. That gets even more emphatic when you see all the tools rather than just these. I was planning to post a summary table that attempts to quantify that for everyone.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:37 am

Tin Medic wrote:Not sure how PWA (Pratt & Whitney Aircraft) is considered a manufacturer.
Ditto Ford Motor Co and Chevrolet Motors Division, as well as Peterson Wholesale Hardware. In these cases, I read "Manufacturer" as third-party "Supplier." Why they would cite a third party source as a spec, I don't know. It's been a task to just get my arms around the relevant tools, but I will let you know the tools these were cited for later. In most cases, it's insignificant to GMTK or G503. Ford GPW part numbers are cited as the spec for a few tools, and those are some of the cats I was referring to.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:53 am

mudbox wrote: it appears as though some manufactures are grossly under-represented in most of our GMTKs
Amen. I plan to post a high-level summary, by Mfgr, rather than by tool, to help quantify it better without having to post 148 scans.
mudbox wrote:Questions about the ignition wrenches... It looks like the 15* & 75* offset wrenches were acceptable as well as the 15* & 60* variety? Am I reading that right?
No, you're not. The ORD 5 contains all hand tools. SNL J-4 contains ALL wrenches, to include applications beyond the N-19 and G-27 SNL's specifying what goes in a GMTK. I don't know what application used 15- and 75-degree angle ignition wrenches, but it wasn't the GMTK. (Pity, since I run into these Williams pieces from time to time!)
mudbox wrote:Edited to add that it looks as if that 1/4" drive Bonney set Wingnutt recently found is spot on for the spec.
Yes, and no. The ORD 5 SNL J-4 contains several different midget sets, not only the one we're familiar with in the GMTK. More pieces, different pieces, etc. Some of the pieces (handles, extension, socket sizes/# of points, etc) are common to several sets. The 1/4-drive set you're looking at, for which the Ordnance Dept used a Bonney model number, is NOT the FSN 41-W-2615. The 41-W-2615 set did not cite a Mfgr's code for its spec. It cited an actual government spec. However, as I explained above, with chisel and screwdriver examples, I think it's safe to conclude that Bonney, as a supplier of a 1/4-drive midget set with pieces common to the 41-W-2615, is a very safe bet. Note that Duro-Chrome is also cited for yet another non-GMTK 1/4 drive set, and that set, too, has several of the same pieces. So, ditto Duro-Chrome. (In the Duro case, the ORD 5 seems humdrum, not revelatory, of course, since one of the RAPD figures depicts Duro tools, but in several other significant cases, as you guys keep reading through this, you're going to continue to be pleased with the number and variety of Mfgr's the ORD 5 is verifying.)
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by d42jeep » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:18 am

Wingnutt,
I'm still reading and digesting this information, but I can tell you I really appreciate all your hard work in getting this on the Gee. Thank you so much!! :!:
-Don
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Hartofoak » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:19 am

Thanks once again Wingnutt for such a comprehensive explanation to my one word enquiry. Like your distillations indicate, the mention of these manufacturers leaves one with a sort of warm feeling to them, even if they are not directly cited as manufacturers of GMTK type tools.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:04 am

Brett Nicholls wrote: From a quick look at the manufacturers list of note missing are Fairmount, Crescent. I wonder why no code for them.
Sorry I missed your question earlier, Brett.

At face value, if a Mfgr is not listed in the Mfgr's Symbols list in the back of the SNL, it simply means they are not cited in the ORD 5 anywhere, which means the Ordnance Dept did not use any of their tool models as a specification in the SNL. It doesn't mean the Ordnance Dept wasn't acquiring tools from them. We know from the CPA War Supply Contracts list, in fact, that both Fairmount and Crescent had contracts with the Ordnance Department in 1942 and 1943.

I suppose one could use the ORD 5 SNL's to gage which Mfgrs had the most "credibility" with the ORD by the number and variety of times their tools are cited as specifications for tools without an ORD specification or drawing or part number, but that's a little capricious, as well. Frankly, given some of the tools for which the ORD uses ORD ES specs, drawing or part numbers as specs, and some for which they use Mfgr's codes as specs, I have a hard time finding a rhyme or reason for it. In the middle of a long list of double box end wrenches, from smallest to largest size openings, all citing an ORD ES or drawing number, for example, they will rather randomly use a WMS code, when I know darned well every Mfgr that made DBEs made that size too, and, if they had drawings to cite as a spec for the other sizes, why not that one?

The real significance of these ORD 5 SNL's for the GMTK guys is this:

(1) verification of additional Mfgr's NOT identified by GMTK manual RAPD figures or period photos, and NOT listed in the CPA War Supply Contracts lists (which had a $50,000 minimum contract value threshold)

(2) more or additional detail in terms of what specific tools a previously verified Mfgr provided than what could be previously derived from GMTK manual RAPD figures, period photos, or the CPA War Supply Contracts lists (which are sometimes too generic in description)

It has helped a little with some G503 analysis, as well, but as I said, I am waiting a bit on that.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Brett Nicholls » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:13 pm

Hi Wingnutt,
Many thanks for the reply. My observation was probably a little premature and like 'mudbox' my brain is spinning also. What you say makes sense so I will take that on board continue reading/digesting. Again - Greatly appreciate the time and hard work you have put into interpriting and disseminating this to us.

Regards,
Brett.


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