ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Tin Medic » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:40 pm

Wingnutt wrote:I didn't want to create confusion, misleading conclusions, or more questions. I also struggled with how to present the data.

Obviously, I did a poor job, more explanation is required, and I am thinking I may have to post some pages as examples, so you can all get a better feel for the contents.

I will get to each question one-by-one, but after reading some of them, and some of the comments, there are some things I can see that I need to re-emphasize, so I thank everyone. It will help make this useful for everyone.

I think not. I believe the presentation was perfectly fine in my opinion. With this much new information combined with the info we already have (a lot of it thanks to you) there were going to be questions and I dont think it was due to presentation. This info was kind of like christmas morning, no-one knew were to start so we jumped in at whatever first caught our eye. I actually printed out your first posts so I could read it when not at my computer and be able to make notes. Speaking for myself, I dont think we would be anywhere near the level of correctness that we are currently at without your info.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by AZ Jeff » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:48 pm

I see a self-published, collectors guide on the GMTK in our future... Too much good research to get lost in postings.

Just say'n... :D

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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:40 am

On hold for now. Frankly, the interest level exhibited here on this forum probably defies the actual number of people who would use it. For example, there are only nineteen (19) people out there with the 'Whiz' (the laminated fold-up guide with tool outlines I made available late last year). It's a rabid but small group. So I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Plus, if I'm going to complete something like that, I think it needs to be informed by the other ORD 5 SNL's, for the other tools not covered in these SNL's, to be as comprehensive on suppliers as possible. But, thanks for the prod! :D
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:43 am

Back to some of the strange “Manufacturers” on the Manufacturers' Symbols lists…

CV”, for Chevrolet Motors Division of GM, appears one time in the SNL J-4, with part number “CV-3679161” being cited as a specification for 41-S-1117-8, which is a common, normal duty, clutch head screwdriver with 8” blade and 3/16” screw size tip. This is not a G506 screwdriver, but I haven’t cross-checked it with any other SNLs. As I said upthread, an Apex code is cited for several clutch head screwdrivers of various sizes. In this case it looks like the ORD is saying, 'whichever Mfgr(s) are making the clutch head screwdriver that Chevy is using in one of their trucks, under this part number, is good enough for us as our spec.'

PNB for Pratt and Whitney is actually a different case, I think. It looks like they had a major machine shop, for production. Whether it was internal and external, I don’t know, but the ORD 5 SNL J-2 cites many of their part numbers for taps, dies, threading sets, etc. I glossed over all that until now.

Did you see the “Submarine Mine Depot” (SUB) on the list in the back of the SNL J-4? That is not a commercial entity. It was a US Navy activity at Fort Monroe, VA. So the Navy is cited as the US Army Ordnance specification for 41-W-977, which is a set of fifteen (15) DOE engineers wrenches, normal duty, alloy steel, with 15-degree angle heads, including several G503 sizes!. :shock: (So much for inter-service rivalry!) :lol:

Staying with DOEs, here is a page that I had already taken a photo of, meaning to add to the “Fairmount Catalog” thread that Phil Jones started, in which we were discussing alloy and carbon steel wrenches.

Image

There are several pages of DOEs in front of this one, starting from the smallest opening sizes. All of those wrenches are specified as alloy steel. But you see how it switches to carbon steel when it hits the larger sizes? (At wrench 41-W-1065-40, TKKX7B, 1-1/8" x 1-1/2", to be precise.) I found that pattern interesting, especially given our knowledge of Williams, Bonney and others making carbon steel wrenches in all sizes.

Anyway, this page is also handy to illustrate some of the comments I made above about the “Specification” column...

You see the wrench with the Williams (WMS-39A) spec? As far as I have checked, most of the major mfgrs of engrs wrenches made this size wrench. It's an odd size, but no odder than others with odd sizes, and if there’s something special about Williams for this particular wrench, as opposed to the size before or after it, one would be hard pressed to explain. So in some cases the use of a Mfgr as a spec is rather benign. Why they would have an Ordnance “taxi” number (type of Ordnance part number) for most of the DOEs, but not that particular one, is also puzzling, but in cases like this, when they apparently did not have an Ordnance ES, part, or “taxi” number to cite, it looks like they picked an industry leader.

I will post a few more example pages next week.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:59 am

In the meantime, here is a table I developed to give a high-level overview of the Mfgrs codes cited inside the SNL J-2 and J-4.

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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Hartofoak » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:58 am

AZ Jeff wrote:I see a self-published, collectors guide on the GMTK in our future... Too much good research to get lost in postings.

Just say'n... :D

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Maybe one day there will be an addition to "jon's" sticky that mentions the "GMTK information to be added in the future". But it will be an enormous task.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by pjones » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:11 pm

Wingnutt,
Plenty of stuff to digest here but fortunately for us you, as usual, have already done the difficult part. It does make me curious what's included in the SNL J-4 29 April 1943.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:15 pm

Me too, Phil, but I'm more curious about the SNL's for the other tools. It would be nice to see the 1943 versions of the 1945 J-2 and the J-4, but we need the other SNL's for full coverage.

I have some leads.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:41 am

Here's something quirky, with no bearing on G503 or GMTK....

I mentioned Peterson Wholesale Hardware upthread, in reply to comments about “Mfgr’s” on the Mfgrs List not always referring strictly to actual tool makers (i.e., Ford, Chevy, Pratt & Whitney, etc).

Peterson was a major wholesaler of tools in Seattle during the war, and I’ve seen snippets of their 1943 catalog before. Curious about what they were providing, I went through the SNL J-4 looking for their Mfgr’s symbol (PTH). Now I’m thinking it might be a mistake.

These are the only two entries I can find:

Image

Anybody else thinking what I’m thinking?

What do you picture when you see the words “Petersen” and “vise grip” in the same sentence?

Unless this is a really bizarre coincidence, I’m thinking the 41-W-458 and -460 'adjustable clamp pliers and vice grip wrench' refers to the 7- and 10-inch versions of the tool that are synonymous with the name Vise Grips, made in DeWitt, Nebraska before, during, and after the war, by Petersen, with an "e", not an "o", until they were bought out by IRWIN in the 1970’s.

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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Hartofoak » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:25 am

That name chimed a memory for me as well ...
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:26 am

Upthread, I promised to provide some examples to illustrate the rationale I used to develop the summaries and tables I provided.

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Note the adjustable slip-joint water pump pliers, 41-P-2100. The number you see in the Specification column (B268589) is an Ordnance drawing number. In every GMTK manual between October 1942, when they were first introduced, and October 1944, the last manual in which they were included, they are specified as having a capacity of 1/4” to 1-5/8”. A length is never specified. The ORD SNL J-2 specifies only the maximum capacity (1-5/8”) and a length of 9-1/2”.

Now note the adjustable slip-joint water pump pliers directly above those, 41-P-2093. The Specification is a Bonney Forge and Tool Works (“BF”) model number, “B-420.” The capacity is only slightly different than the GMTK and J-2 nomenclature. All the major tool makers made these, all about 9-1/2” to 10” long, all with slightly different capacities.

Here is another good one.

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Note the series of three (3) electrician’s screwdrivers differing in length of blade (2-1/2", 5-1/2", and 8") only.

Only the 41-S-1225 and the 41-S-1228 are in the GMTK. They have a Federal Standard Stock Catalog specification (Type I, GGG-S-121a), which is included in the 1939 version I have, by the way.

The 41-S-1332 on the other hand cites a Mfgrs code (“FRB”) – which crosses to The Forsberg Mfgr Co in Bridgeport, Conn. - and model number (“W817”) for its specification. Forsberg is best known here for its hack saw frames, which sport their nifty whale logo. But they made a full line of tools, including screwdrivers.

In fact, I just happen to have one (bottom, with red handle, in the following photo) with a 2-1/2" blade.

Image

And it has the whale logo on the ferrule (although it’s hard to see in this photo).

Image
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:25 am

Some last thoughts as I wait for the other SNL's in the ORD 5 series, and before I move on to the 1939 Fed Specs (finally!)

Looking over the Mfgrs table this morning I can see that the APCO-Mossberg entries could be in the left-hand (G503- and GMTK-specified or similar tools) column. Even though the lug wrench I am referring to here was not the right size for G503 and had a parenthetical reference to the Dodge T-202 (pre-war VC series trucks replaced by WC series), and the SPW was not the right size for a G503 SPW, the SNL J-4 clearly confirms what we already know from collected specimens: that APCO-Mossberg was supplying lug wrenches and SPW's to the Ordnance Dept.

Having all the Tool Mfgr spec citations summarized in a chart better reflects what Cliff, Brett, mudbox, and others already picked up on without it – several brands are under-represented by most kits.

My own reaction went even further than that.

Some of the brands that have been outright doubted (Snap-On, Plomb), treated like "off" brands or red-headed step-children (Herbrand, Cornwell), or looked at with wonder (Blackhawk) here were clearly Ordnance Dept heavyweights. On top of that, judging by the number of times and variety of tools they are cited as specs for, Snap-On, Blackhawk, and Bonney look like Ordnance Dept favorites, their "go to" Mfgrs. The CPA War Supply Contracts already rectified the mistake of considering Plomb a USAAF vendor only; these ORD 5 SNL's blow it out of the water.

And, as Brett and others have picked up on, the opposite is also true.

Duro-Chrome is cited for certain key GMTK components, as one might expect, but does not appear to be one of the big dogs in the ORD kennel. Ditto for Williams.

New Britain, Barcalo, and Billings & Spencer had very minor roles as spec sources, and Vlchek was only cited twice, and that was for non-G503/non-GMTK SPWs.

But the biggest impact might be on the Mfgrs very popular on G503.com who are glaringly absent, to include Fairmount, Crescent, Utica and Stevens-Walden.

When I acquire the remaining ORD 5 SNL's (hammers, gages, pry bars), this picture may change a little, but I doubt it will change drastically. The J-2 and J-4 represent roughly 85% of the GMTK tools.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by pjones » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:36 am

Wingnutt wrote: Some of the brands that have been outright doubted (Snap-On, Plomb), treated like "off" brands or red-headed step-children (Herbrand, Cornwell), or looked at with wonder (Blackhawk) here were clearly Ordnance Dept heavyweights. On top of that, judging by the number of times and variety of tools they are cited as specs for, Snap-On, Blackhawk, and Bonney look like Ordnance Dept favorites, their "go to" Mfgrs.
Wonderful news to the guys digging through tools every weekend!!
Wingnutt wrote: But the biggest impact might be on the Mfgrs very popular on G503.com who are glaringly absent, to include Fairmount, Crescent, Utica and Stevens-Walden.
Why? What does this have to do with what Ford and WOA purchased? ......am I missing something?

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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:43 am

The comment wasn't in reference to Ford or Willys factory toolkits, Phil. The ORD 5 has no bearing on that. I'm simply saying that it's noteworthy that these Mfgrs were not used as specification sources by the Ordnance Dept.
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Re: ORD 5 Ordnance Supply Catalog

Post by pjones » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:01 am

Greg,
Please dont take this as a challenge because I greatly appreciate what you have done for the tool forum. I have a few things that keep gnawing at me. Perhaps you can help me work through it. I find it difficult to make definitive conclusions about who didn't supply tools based on these data (the ORD 5 and CPA contract data). For example, your CPA contract data doesn't include all contracts. The ORD 5 is from '45. So while what it states may well be true for '45 what about it's '43 predecessor? The suppliers may have been different..I don't know...just thinking out loud....

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