My few finds this year
- Silly's MB
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Re: My few finds this year
I understand that Greg, It was in the number 2 set though which is another one of my interests.
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1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Wingnutt
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Re: My few finds this year
Okay, but given your theory - that the QMC and then the ORD in turn mistakenly specified 15-degree angle long DBEs, when they meant to specify offsets - I still don't understand why you're concerned about a 1939 Herbrand catalog that doesn't seem to include long 15-degree angle Ultra box wrenches. You're using the offsets for the GMTK, right? Might as well use them for the early No. 2, too, no?
Back to the Herbrand 1939 catalog..., were there compendiums in the back? The pages you posted seem to be showing a set or two for each line. The page introducing the new Ultra 15-degree angle box wrenches is showing one three-wrench set, No. 6920, for example. If you're that interested in having Ultra 15-angle DBEs for a pre-war/late 1941 2nd Echelon No. 2 unit set, I highly doubt that Herbrand would introduce a whole line of wrenches and make them available in only three opening size combinations, and one set. Snap-On, Plomb, Williams, and others did the same thing - show one or two different sets on a page, but in a table on the next page or sometimes in the back they will show all the wrenches and other sets.
Back to the Herbrand 1939 catalog..., were there compendiums in the back? The pages you posted seem to be showing a set or two for each line. The page introducing the new Ultra 15-degree angle box wrenches is showing one three-wrench set, No. 6920, for example. If you're that interested in having Ultra 15-angle DBEs for a pre-war/late 1941 2nd Echelon No. 2 unit set, I highly doubt that Herbrand would introduce a whole line of wrenches and make them available in only three opening size combinations, and one set. Snap-On, Plomb, Williams, and others did the same thing - show one or two different sets on a page, but in a table on the next page or sometimes in the back they will show all the wrenches and other sets.
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- Silly's MB
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Re: My few finds this year
As I said before I have the 15 degrees in my MVMTS at the moment.Wingnutt wrote:Okay, but given your theory - that the QMC and then the ORD in turn mistakenly specified 15-degree angle long DBEs, when they meant to specify offsets - I still don't understand why you're concerned about a 1939 Herbrand catalog that doesn't seem to include long 15-degree angle Ultra box wrenches. You're using the offsets for the GMTK, right? Might as well use them for the early No. 2, too, no?
I am open minded and willing to wait for more evidence, I also enjoy exploring possibilities.
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1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Wingnutt
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- Tin Medic
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Re: My few finds this year
Greg, when I posted up the 39 catalog I did not have the 41.
1952 M-37
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Re: My few finds this year
Also, if anyone is interested I have a 46 Cornwell catalog.
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Re: My few finds this year
I'd be interested in seeing the breaker bars, ignition wrenches, DOEs; you know, the usual subjects…Tin Medic wrote:Also, if anyone is interested I have a 46 Cornwell catalog.
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Re: My few finds this year
Nice illustrations of Blackhawk tool kit as used on the M25 Tank transporter in the 1944 TM. (circa page 122)
http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-767_ ... 5_1944.pdf
This is a Blackhawk I have in my collection. So this is an identifiable manufacturer referencing the 41-w-605 and 608 in a war time manual and illustrating 45 degree offsets. You have to wonder if the 15 deg was a typo and should of been 45 deg.
This is a Blackhawk I have in my collection. So this is an identifiable manufacturer referencing the 41-w-605 and 608 in a war time manual and illustrating 45 degree offsets. You have to wonder if the 15 deg was a typo and should of been 45 deg.
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1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Wingnutt
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Re: My few finds this year
You need to carefully review the nomenclatures again, Roger. You are tossing these numbers out there as if it's just a single digit off, and could've been a simple typo, but the descriptions are completely different, the degree of the offset for the short DBEs is not provided until late war, and the degree provided for the long DBE's is never in reference to an offset, it is in reference to an angle, which when used to describe wrenches depicted with straight handles, is referring to the placement of the head.Silly's MB wrote: You have to wonder if the 15 deg was a typo and should of been 45 deg.
Here is the pertinent nomenclature (minus the opening sizes, for brevity) for the short double offset DBEs, 41-W-620, -622, and -625, in the 1938 OQMG Circular 4 for the MVMTS:
“WRENCHES, box, double-head, short, off-set-type”
The Circ 4 did not include long DBEs.
Here is the pertinent nomenclature for the short double offset DBEs, 41-W-620, -622, and -625, and the long DBEs, 41-W-603, -605, and -608, in in the October 1942 SNL N-19, the April 1943 SNL N-19, and the December 1943 TM 10-475 for the MVMTS:
“WRENCH, box, dble-hd., dble-hex., short, offset type”
“WRENCH, box, dble-hd., long, dble-hex., 15* angle”
Here is the pertinent nomenclature for the DBEs, both types, in the July and October 1944 ORD 6 SNL G-27 for the GMTS:
“WRENCH, box, dble-offset, dble-hd., dble-hex., short”
“WRENCH, box, 15* angle, dble-hd., dble-hex., long”
Here is the pertinent nomenclature for the DBEs, both types, in the July 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27 for the GMTS:
“WRENCH, box, dble-offset (45*), short, dble-hex”
“WRENCH, box, dble-end, dble-hex., long, 15* angle”
Note that the short DBEs are consistenly referred to as “offset type” or “double offset”.
Note that there is no degree specified for the offset until 1945, but when there is, it is not referring to an angle, it is qualifying the degree of the offset.
Note that the word offset is never used to describe the long DBEs.
Note that 15* and 45* appear together in the 1945 manual, referring to two different bends, an offset and a head angle (akin to, but in a different plane than, engineer's wrenches).
Note that these nomenclatures consistently describing two very different types of DBEs appear in the same manual, again and again and again.
Your theory that ORD meant to also specify offset type DBEs for the long DBEs, and someone at the ORD may have mistakenly typed a ‘1,’ resulting in ’15,’ instead of a ‘4,’ resulting in ’45,’ does not explain why they would very deliberately describe the short offset DBEs as an “offset type” wrench, in every manual, and yet not describe the long DBEs as an “offset type,” if that’s what they intended, in the very same manual.
On top of that, as I already demonstrated with scans I posted upthread, every RAPD figure is perfectly consistent with the SNL’s. The shorts are always depicted as industry standard offset patterns, and the longs are always depicted as industry standard straight handle patterns with 15* angle heads.
Your typo theory cannot explain away all that, Roger.
There’s obviously something amiss with the use of the same FSN for two different pattern DBEs. But you can’t use long offset DBEs that appear in other manuals with the same FSN to try to say that the MVM/GMTS manuals are mistaken. Between the SNL’s and the RAPD figures there is no mistaking what types of DBEs were specified for the GMTK. If the ORD intended for all the DBEs, short and long, to be double offsets, the manuals consistently describing and illustrating short double offset pattern and long 15* pattern obviously have a more profound and persistent "error" than a typo. You are essentially placing all your stock in a number assigned by the Treasury Department, rather than what the ORD is telling us over and over again in words and figures.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My few finds this year
My computer keeps hanging up on the download, Roger. Is that kit identified as a Blackhawk kit in the TM? Or are you identifying it as a Blackhawk kit from the RAPD figure?
I'm counting roughly 100 pieces. I'm wondering if this is that 100-piece mixed wrench set in the ORD 5 identified as a Blackhawk kit. As noted in my ORD 5 summary, there is quite a lot of GMTK overlap, so it's a really nifty find. Thanks for sharing the link and the image! Those are probably carbon steel DOEs with that finish.
I'm counting roughly 100 pieces. I'm wondering if this is that 100-piece mixed wrench set in the ORD 5 identified as a Blackhawk kit. As noted in my ORD 5 summary, there is quite a lot of GMTK overlap, so it's a really nifty find. Thanks for sharing the link and the image! Those are probably carbon steel DOEs with that finish.
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- Silly's MB
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Re: My few finds this year
In the manual it is described as a Blackhawk Set.
On page 126;
KIT, tool (Blackhawk No. 100), w/steel
chest, complete (41-B-3613-500) (con
sists of items shown in fig. 76).........
I guess it was a bit of a long-shot with the typo
I am fully understanding of the 15 degree description but I have made some notes for my own clarity regarding the use of the FSN.
You also have to remember that the late RAPD images show exactly the same DBE wrenches with differing FSN's so a discrepancy there.
So far, the evidence as I see it for the FSN being an offset (Not exclusively) in chronological order;
Aug 43 Army Motors article with photograph clearly showing the 605 and 608 as offset.
1 X image in 1944 manual TM9-767 showing 605 and 608 as offset and giving a manufacturer who made an offset.
1 x description in March 1945 Ord Supply catalogue of the 605 as a 45 deg double offset and showing a Bonney double offset catalogue ref.
1 x description in March 1945 Ord Supply Catalogue of the 608 as a 45 deg double offset and showing a Herbrand double offset reference.
In Europe,March 1944, an Interchangeability section was set up for making changes to SNL's (Not tool specific) and other manuals and it seems this was not really completed by the end of the war.Using Troops were not always issued with up-to date SNL's.
Tools were a controlled item because of shortage.
In Europe, tools are being stored by FSN as first choice from 1943 or before so any differences in degrees are getting lost in the bins.
I Understand that only for a short while Ordnance troops were shipped with Basic load from the US Raritan Arsenal, June to November 1944 otherwise they were issued in theatre. It was cancelled as an error.
On page 126;
KIT, tool (Blackhawk No. 100), w/steel
chest, complete (41-B-3613-500) (con
sists of items shown in fig. 76).........
I guess it was a bit of a long-shot with the typo
I am fully understanding of the 15 degree description but I have made some notes for my own clarity regarding the use of the FSN.
You also have to remember that the late RAPD images show exactly the same DBE wrenches with differing FSN's so a discrepancy there.
So far, the evidence as I see it for the FSN being an offset (Not exclusively) in chronological order;
Aug 43 Army Motors article with photograph clearly showing the 605 and 608 as offset.
1 X image in 1944 manual TM9-767 showing 605 and 608 as offset and giving a manufacturer who made an offset.
1 x description in March 1945 Ord Supply catalogue of the 605 as a 45 deg double offset and showing a Bonney double offset catalogue ref.
1 x description in March 1945 Ord Supply Catalogue of the 608 as a 45 deg double offset and showing a Herbrand double offset reference.
In Europe,March 1944, an Interchangeability section was set up for making changes to SNL's (Not tool specific) and other manuals and it seems this was not really completed by the end of the war.Using Troops were not always issued with up-to date SNL's.
Tools were a controlled item because of shortage.
In Europe, tools are being stored by FSN as first choice from 1943 or before so any differences in degrees are getting lost in the bins.
I Understand that only for a short while Ordnance troops were shipped with Basic load from the US Raritan Arsenal, June to November 1944 otherwise they were issued in theatre. It was cancelled as an error.
Limited access.
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Wingnutt
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Re: My few finds this year
Yep. That's the same set detailed in the ORD 5.Silly's MB wrote:In the manual it is described as a Blackhawk Set.
On page 126;
KIT, tool (Blackhawk No. 100), w/steel
chest, complete (41-B-3613-500) (con
sists of items shown in fig. 76).........
Again, just so we're understanding each other, there is clearly a dual use of the same FSN for long DBEs of different patterns. The early SNL N-19, TM 10-475 and mid war ORD 6 use it for long DBEs with straight pattern handles and 15* head angle. The 1945 ORD 6 uses a different FSN. On the other side, we have the late ORD 5, this late tanker TM etc using the FSN for a long offset DBE. I get that. My point in continually reminding you of the SNL nomenclatures and RAPD pictures is that you are chasing down an FSN issue. Not a GMTK issue. For a collector to put long offset DBEs in his kit, he would have to ignore the SNL and RAPD pictures and follow the FSN to other manuals, and declare that the ORD had the FSN correct, and they had all those descriptions and figures, year after year, not one time, wrong.Silly's MB wrote: So far, the evidence as I see it for the FSN being an offset
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Re: My few finds this year
I am understanding all this Greg. In the ideal world where the 15 degrees wrenches were available,nomenclatures were read fully, tool kits may of had the correct 15 degree wrenches.
We are only looking at the tail end of the supply chain.In the confusion of war supply chain, which is where I have a deep rooted interest,inexperienced staff were replaced with more inexperienced staff, Tools would of been ordered using the FSN, and if in that stores where the FSN was being used to select tools for toolboxes and they had the correct FSN for the 41-W-605 were they worrying about angles then ?
I would think that they were not selecting the right angle and issuing what was available. They clearly felt the need to differentiate between them at a later date because of confusion.
Its all a bit hypothetical but interesting. Factory and Motorpool.
We are only looking at the tail end of the supply chain.In the confusion of war supply chain, which is where I have a deep rooted interest,inexperienced staff were replaced with more inexperienced staff, Tools would of been ordered using the FSN, and if in that stores where the FSN was being used to select tools for toolboxes and they had the correct FSN for the 41-W-605 were they worrying about angles then ?
I would think that they were not selecting the right angle and issuing what was available. They clearly felt the need to differentiate between them at a later date because of confusion.
Its all a bit hypothetical but interesting. Factory and Motorpool.
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1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Wingnutt
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Re: My few finds this year
More than a bit hypothetical, in my opinion, Roger, in deliberate refutation of what the manuals say and show, and without real full knowledge of the reasons behind the FSN duality (again, there's a strong possibility that they simply did not have a separate FSN for the 15* angle pattern DBEs until late war, so the GMTK planners used the same FSN to get the correct opening sizes and length, and used the SNL nomenclature and RAPD figures to specify the 15* angle pattern), but if that's your story for deviating from the manuals, I am not going to try to un-stick you from it.
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- Silly's MB
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Re: My few finds this year
Sorry for being so ignorant.
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1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
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