Drawing,Taxi Numbers and Piecemarks on Tools

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by lucakiki » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:39 pm

I do not think anyone ever stated that the taxi number is a requirement for tools (wrenches mainly) included in a jeep Toolkit.
Actually I consider the very uncommon stamping of a Taxi number on a wrench whose size is correct for a jeep as a not desireable feature when the goal is to assemble a supposedly correct toolkit.
Of course I cannot flat out exclude that some wrenches in toolkits might have a Taxi number.

I would not lose much time discussing the taxi numbers crudely scratched on some wrenches, as they do not seem to have any important meaning to me.
The neatly stamped taxi numbers that do appear on a few wrenches do seem to me as likely (nothing scientific in the word likely!) applied during manufacture do exist on wrenches whose style appears as war time,and are a different kind of thing.
The few Fairmounts I have seen or even owned are of a war time style, for instance and as Mr. de La Palice would have said, if there was a Taxi number there had to be a reason.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:23 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:One problem I think we have here is ythe contention that we need to consider any tool with a taxi number as "wartime" or as you said, at least from 1942 onwards...
I never said "any tool with a taxi number."

You're still apparently having alot of trouble correctly reading what I actually write.

If a wrench has wartime identification characteristics or markings, how the "taxi" number was applied is irrelevant. The marking technique merely provides additional information. If it's forged-in (e.g., Robin's 731-A or Roger's GMTS DBE's), it simply tells us that the wrench was produced in full cooperation with the Ordnance Department wartime "taxi" number marking practice before it hit the line, before it was purchased, as an implicit result of a contract between the manufacturer and the Ordnance Department in which such a marking was a requirement. If it's etched (e.g., Luca's Fairmount 27-C) or punched (e.g., all the many Armstrong HI-TENSILE DOEs), it simply tells us that the wrench was marked, either by the manufacturer or the Ordnance Department, at some point after it came off the line, after it was purchased.

There is absolutely no logical reason to suspect that a wrench with wartime identification characteristics or markings that also has an etched or punched "taxi" number, no matter how sophisticated or crude, was somehow, for some peculiar reason, marked after the war was over. Due to the confusion of the various supply numbers (Ordnance drawing, Ordnance "taxi", FSN, and mfgr's) being used, we know the Ordnance Department created an Official Stock Number and abolished all of its previous numbers in late 1944/early 1945, creating a cross-reference library (ORD 5) for the transition, the vesitges of which can still be seen in other TMs. It's apparent that some tools were still being marked with "taxi" numbers after the war, before the new stock numbering system took permanent hold, but the examples we've seen had characteristics or markings that indicated they were manufactured after the war. The casting of wartime doubt on a bonafide wartime wrench with a punched or etched-in "taxi" number is wrong, and cynical in its extreme.

You are painting yourself into the same corner with your insistence on forged-in dating, Chuck.

Do Fairmount wrenches bear date codes? Barcalo-Buffalo? Duro-Chrome? Vlchek? The fact of the matter is that we don't use date codes to verify ANY of the commonly accepted Jeep toolkit wrenches. The only prominent manufacturers known for wartime date codes are Bonney, Plomb and Snap-On/Blue-Point. Other than Fairmount and Barcalo-Buffalo, which happened to be included in found NOS toolkits, we use industry references (e.g., catalogs) and collection resources (e.g., Alloy Artifacts, Epsteins, WorthPoint, etc) to date the wrenches of manufacturers that are known, through other applications (e.g., Dodge, GMTS, etc) or historical records and contract information, to be wartime suppliers.

Why, then, other than some ulterior motive, inability or refusal to think this through objectively with respect to long held convictions, should we have to use a higher standard (forged-in date code) to verify the vintage of a bonafide wartime wrench just because it has a "taxi" number?

The idea that these funny looking numbers (that we didn't even have a good name or explanation for until the Ordnance history book surfaced) somehow casts doubt on the vintage of tools is erroneous. When accompanied by other wartime identification qualities, the "taxi" numbers actually lend more credibility, based on the fact that we now conclusively know they were being used by the Ordnance Department during the war.

All of the examples above have "taxi" numbers and other verified wartime characteristics.

I wish I had the rest of the wrenches that go with either Robin's 731-A or Luca's 27-C!
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:30 am

Why would you make the statement that it is IRRELEVANT how a taxi number was applied to a wartime wrench because it tells us the wrench was produced in full cooperation with the Ord Dept?

1) The scratched-on taxi number could have been applied to a war-time wrench in 1955 right?
2) The sloppy, angled, off center, poorly STAMPED taxi number may not have been applied at the factory in WWII either, it could have been applied in 1952 by a supply person to attach to the front of a box of those tools as an additional identifier.

In BOTH cases....the appearance of the taxi number does not indicate WHEN it was applied and therefore no guarantee it was put on in WWII does it.

Agan...there is no way anyone can guarantee when an IRWIN screwdriver had a "41-W" number put on BY THE FACTORY even though that type marking/ number is found in use on other WWII era tools....if a FACTORY marking can't be confirmed to a WWII date, how can some marking OBVIOUSLY not a part of the original tooling marks be GUARANTEED to have been put on at the factory...during WWII?

PROOF....would be nice.....a number of EXAMPLES would be helpful....as it is with all the different marking schemes in play during WWII, it would be good to see something DEFINITIVE....like a factory tool kit or WWII photo or a shred of evidence beyond two tools that could have either been wartime production and markd post war or a forged on number of a tool that could have been made post war..

As it is...if there was a REQUIREMENT to mark them with a taxi number as that document seems to indicate....why does the FORD wrench drawing not REQUIRE IT.

PLEASE....answer the question about the Ford drawing I have brought up in almost every response that you have not addressed as of yet.

Again.....also tell us WHERE ARE ALL THOSE taxi marked wrenches the REQUIREMENT called for?
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:10 am

Chuck,

Not sure why you can't understand the basic facts here. The wrenches are already identified as wartime through other characteristics. The taxi number is irrelevant to dating them. Pretend the wrenches didn't have taxi numbers: still wartime. Since we know, however, without any shred of doubt, that the Ordnance Department was marking tools with taxi numbers during wartime, the only reason, again, to suspect that these perfectly legitimate wartime Ordnance numbers were put on a perfectly legitimate wartime wrench after the war was over would have to be considered cynical. There is no reason to question it. If you'd prefer to think that these perfectly verified wartime wrenches were marked with pefectly verified wartime taxi numbers after the war, you may, but there is no reason for anyone else to take such a cynical position.

Your cynical scenarios of someone stamping or etching wartime taxi numbers on wartime wrenches at some point in time after the war has ended HAS NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on either the wartime vintage of the wrench or on the wartime practice of the Ordnance Department marking wrenches with taxi numbers. Do you understand that or not?

Someone stamping wartime wrenches in 1952 CANNOT change the age of the wrench. Your scenario doesn't make the wrench post-war. Someone stamping ANY wrench with a taxi number in 1952 CANNOT change the fact that taxi numbers are wartime. Your scenario doesn't make "taxi" numbers post-war.

The only thing your scenario achieves is to reveal how deseparately you want these taxi numbers to be invalid, despite the historical record and examples proving the opposite.

The Ford drawing is irrelevant. It's not a question for me. It's a question for someone who claimed that Ford was providing wrenches with "taxi" numbers in their toolkits.

We already covered consistency and comprehensiveness. Irrelevant to these particular wrenches.
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:49 am

OK...a wrench is wartime....that statement is only REALLY valid if they stopped making it in September 1945....if production with no changes continued to 1956 then how do you know when this one was produced?

ANSWER: you don't.

Prove to me that ONE wrench was made in "wartime" with a FACTORY enscribed taxi number (that would be FORGED. I'm sorry, but scratched on or irregularly stamped on taxi numbers can't be confirmed as to WHEN they were so marked). You would have to do that with a wrench with a DATE CODE on it.

Start with that kind of PROOF and then there can be no question of a wrench a) being "wartime" production and b) having a FACTORY enscribed during mfger taxi number.

Anything else fails to prove WHEN a marking was applied....

If you prefer to ignore a company that made 277,000 jeeps, close to 4,000 GPs, 15,000 GTBs, untold THOUSANDS of 1 1/2 ton trucks, how many Staff Cars, with tool kits that seem to follow the Ford Drawing because they ignore the taxi number "requirement".

It you prefer to ignore all the hundreds of thousands of MB kit wrenches (so far Fairmounts) and hundreds of thousands of Dodge kit wrenches (so far Vlchek) WITHOUT a taxi number that was "required".

So be it....yes some examples exist of "wartime" wrenches...but no proof if those wrenches were made during or after the war or if the markings were applied during or after the war exist.

Do you have PROOF of dated production wrenches with the taxi number? I mean with it FORGED on.

What are those characteristics that confirm a wrench with a forged-on taxi number was ONLY made during the war and not produced in the late 1940s or 1950s?
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:01 am

I'm not ignoring them, they're irrelevant to this issue. As for comprehensiveness, consistency, date coding, we already covered and resolved that. We don't insist on it in any other wrenches for any other marking conventions. And unless you're prepared to invalidate every other wrench that we date to wartime through physical characteristics and markings, but no date codes, no way to actually prove they were manufactured explicitly and only during wartime, it's a red herring. As I posted much earlier, the Armstrong HI-TENSILE marking is a 1942-1945 marking indicating wartime restriction alloy of carbon-manganese. The Fairmount is a correct spear head alloy steel 27-C. I'm not familiar with the DBE manufacturer, but the DBEs are alloy plain steel finish GMTS longs. The taxi number, by itself, doesn't date these wrenches. But, since the taxi number is a wartime marking, and they're wartime vintage, it tells me they have a high probability of being actual veterans, unlike most the wrenches we accept as merely vintage, having no way of knowing if they were actually used or not.

By the way, this issue is not the same as the IRWIN 'GSN' stamped screwdriver. I have to say, it's a bit strange and ironic for you to be citing this issue to me, since it was I who first emphasized for all that the stamp was not simply the Federal Standard Stock Catalog number, but the exact syntax of the Willys Drawing stamping instruction. It's that exact syntax that allows us to date the stamping itself to 1950 and any and all examples, in my opinion, to post-war.
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:24 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:Anything else fails to prove WHEN a marking was applied....
Given your continued hang up with this point, Chuck, I can only reach the conclusion that you are either being deliberately belligerent or that you are truly (not meant pejoratively, sorry) unable to understand the basic logic of this.

Did you read this?
Wingnutt wrote:Someone stamping wartime wrenches in 1952 CANNOT change the age of the wrench. Your scenario doesn't make the wrench post-war. Someone stamping ANY wrench with a taxi number in 1952 CANNOT change the fact that taxi numbers are wartime. Your scenario doesn't make "taxi" numbers post-war.
If someone stamped the taxi number on all those Armstrong HI-TENSILE wrenches in 1955, it can't make them any newer than they are. They were manufactured in wartime. The HI-TENSILE wrench is one of Armstrong's wartime lines. If someone stamped the taxi number on Luca's Fairmount 27-C in 1955, it doesn't make it a post-war wrench. And in neither case does the act of stamping a bonefide wartime wrench with a bonafide wartime marking in 1955 illegitimize the taxi number as a post-war thing.

I'm at a loss for how to explain this any clearer than that.
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Silly's MB » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:47 am

Here is a link to the book The Ordanance Department: Procurement and Supply

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/ ... H_Pub_10-1

I think it gets exciting at chapter XVIII "Revisions in the Depot System" just printing that section for bed time reading.

This is another interesting document with lots of facts and figures.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/StatReview-ASF.pdf

(Some graphs show the rate of acceleration in production during 1942 which possibly shows how much equipment may possibly of been bought "off the shelf"( not related to this topic though))
Limited access.
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:15 pm

I did check AA on the Hi-Tensile wrenches....they say: "The Hi-Tensile marking SUGGESTS production during the 1942-1945 wartime period.".....OK...I'll take that suggestion under advisement.

Hey....there are Armstong wrenches around....no problem. There are a very small number with a taxi number on them....some are scratched, some were stamped but not as a part of the original process and could have been put on after they were sold or in 1955 and some are stamped in and look to be straight, even, proper depth, aligned, etc, which MIGHT indicate the factory applied them. None of those three types of examples seems to be found in higher numbers than the others...

By the way....a wrench made from 1942 to 1955 that has NO changes to it whatsoever throughout production may very well be called a "wartime" wrench. If it was actually rolling off the mfger line in 1951 it might be quite disengenuous to call it a "wartime" wrench however. Likewise finding a wrench in 2011 that was made from 1942 through 1955 with an added on taxi number does not mean it was put on between 1942 and 1945....maybe it was put on in 1959 when someone actually READ that document?

You are correct in stating that we don't question every other wrench we date to "wartime" through physical characteristics and markings but without date codes (Fairmounts and Barcalos come to mind) for a very good reason....we have actual TOOL KITS from an MB and a GPW from vehicles from 1945 to check out....so we can date other wrenches like them through the same physical characteristics as "wartime".....granted that one of the Barcalos in my no-isn set for my GPW may very well have been made in 1946.... if in fact we actually knew WHEN Barcalo started and stopped production of that style wrench....which we don't.

There is a BIG difference........ due to us having some examples (the MB and GPW kits) we CAN identify the same tools as "wartime" based on what we know at this point in time. Without any kits having surfaced WITH wrenches WITH a taxi number on them, the comparison is not valid.

Now ....if you had a jeep tool kit with wrenches with the taxi number on them with some provenance to it....then that would be a different can of herring.

Without being able to DATE a wrench with a taxi number on it to a year in WWII....all bets are off on it being something you would need for a jeep kit....or any vehicle based on current info. Motorpool-kits, (if the wrench was made in WWII) is always wide open for these kinds of items however.

I think the discussion has run itself out....without more DEFINITIVE proof....there does not seem to be any pressing need to seek out wrenches that only have a taxi number on them for your factory vehicle tool kit....or any way to substantiate their inclusion in your kit if you have one.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:42 am

This conversation ran its course about three days ago, Chuck, and nothing has changed.

AA has multiple Armstrong HI-TENSILE wrenches in its collection and is much more definitive describing them as wartime and dating them to 1942-1945, without caveat. Ditto the Herbrand "AISI 1340" marked wrenches, for the same reasons (wartime restriction alloy). AA uses similar language with several other commonly accepted wrenches, to include Duro-Chrome circle-DC and many others based on suggestive finishes alone. Vlchek, too. Williams, etc. No found toolkit. No forged-in date codes. Even though it’s obvious that the ISN (“1728”) was stamped into the example I posted above at the same time as the taxi number, indicating that it was stamped in during production, pretend the taxi number isn’t there. The wrench meets all the criteria of an Armstrong HI-TENSILE wrench, which AA dates to 1942-1945. No forged-in date code to prove it was actually manufactured during wartime, but it has that correct HI-TENSILE marking, the correct plain steel finish, and the correct wartime Armstrong logo. While not as common as Fairmount, they do get exchanged here on the G as well.

If you want to dimiss the HI-TENSILE wrenches, you will have to unilaterally dismiss all the wrenches generally accepted here as depot and motor pool tools without date codes, not found in NOS toolkits, that AA identfies as wartime through catalogs, research, indsutry and production knowledge, and analysis.

As for the Fairmount, you still don't seem to understand that it's a logical dead end for your position. Look at Luca’s Fairmount 27-C. Now ignore the taxi number. Pretend it isn't there. Correct shape and dimensions. Correct markings. Correct finish. This is wartime wrench. Your issue can’t logically be when it was marked with the taxi number, which can’t logically affect the vintage of the wrench. Your issue can only be the taxi number itself. Your issue would have to be that you still consider them post-war, in grossly arrogant opposition to the fact that a government publication, written explicitly to describe the Ordnance Department’s supply practices during wartime, confirms that they were marked on tools during wartime.

You keep painting these 1955 scenarios, when there would be no institutional Ordnance Department reason to mark a wartime taxi number on any wrench (they were obsolete) as if it disproves something. Could it have still been happening in pockets of error until the OSN took hold? Sure. The Army is anything but consistent and monolithic in its regulations. But your scenario (again, cynical in extreme) HAS NO IMPACT on the more reasonable scenario that taxi numbers were being applied to wartime tools in wartime. Just like the book says.

I know the collective conventional wisdom has been that these numbers were fishy.

The collective conventional wisdom was WRONG.
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools(taxi)

Post by lucakiki » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:50 am

May I repeat, regarding that Fairmount wrench , that it is of a kind predating the much loved "sharps", hence definitely war time?
Let us not forget those early postwar Fairmounts with all the necessary information forged in on the shank, which might suggest that even the sharps were phased out after the war.

The way the taxi number is stamped reminds me of the factory stamping seen on a MOLYBDENUM Fairmount, so I would not doubt that it was stamped at the factory and not after delivery.

As for wrenches supplied on delivery on a given vehicle,I tink that most likely they did not have a taxi number, but certainly I have no reason to flat out exclude it.
I just tend to assemble all of my kits as matching as possible,and wrenches with taxi numbers are so unusual that I never worried for them :I do not even remember what happened to my taxi Fairmount or if I still own it...
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:22 am

Thanks for clarifying that Luca. I'm only using the Fairmount because he doesn't think the HI-TENSILE is wartime enough. It works just fine for me...
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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:45 am

Actually, AA has a bunch of H/T wrenches listed....but of the open end ones there are only TWO I could find:
1734 TKKX4B with a real stamping that might very well have actually been done by Armstrong when they marked the jawface
1730 TKKX20 with a secondary stamping that might have been done at Armstrong or by anyone in 1955?

The other H/Ts I could find were box end and I did not find ANY with a taxi number yet I believe that the various GMTKs might very well have included some box wrenches....or some of the different echelon service outfits MIGHT have had a few, however dating the production of them exclusively to WWII does not seem possible.

But... if you read the BEGINNING of the AA section on Armstrong...they DO say that the H/T marking SUGGESTS the 1942-1945 era....they do not flat-out confirm the date....

I did look at the Fairmount 27C Luca posted....yup...sure looks like a "wartime" Fairmount....but that taxi number? When was it applied again? That wrench could have been in the possession of the Army for 30 years after the war and the taxi number applied at any time since it does NOT look like the fonts Fairmount used to stamp other info on it.

PLEASE EXPLAIN how you can categorically base your argument around the use of the taxi number in WWII on a wrench that was made in WWII, maybe even before or after WWII without knowing WHEN and WHO stamped that taxi number on it?

My "issue" is that while the taxi number may have actually been a part of a gov't contract and REQUIRED it to be put on a wrench (still looking for a contract to prove that...), the various wrenches we have that are "WARTIME" (or pre-war or post war mfger) that have that marking have NO way to confirm if they were marked in WWII or in (if 1955 is offensive) in 1954.

Saying that a wrench with a marking not original to production was marked in WWII is not correct....it is wishful thinking.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re:Stamped Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by lucakiki » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:27 am

Definitely not willing to start a discussion of any kind, but to me the taxi number stamped on that Fairmount 27c looks like factory stamped, if compared to the stamped information visible on some of the very few Fairmount wrenches depicted on Alloy-artifacts.
Of course opinions can vary,and it would not be the first time that stamped-in fonts are interpreted or assessed differently.

May I add that while forged in information does not leave much space for doubts, there are brands which usually do not put any forged in information(barring date codes or mould identifiers) on their wrenches, but they stamp it in. ( Possibly to have more flexibility when a change is required)

So it is not surprising that in case they were required to add a taxi number, they would stamp it on the shank just as they would do for the kind of steel alloy or for the ISN, or for their own trade mark/logotype.
See Barcalo, Vlchek or Fairmount for instance.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: Drawing Numbers on Tools

Post by Wingnutt » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:53 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:PLEASE EXPLAIN how you can categorically base your argument around the use of the taxi number in WWII on a wrench that was made in WWII, maybe even before or after WWII without knowing WHEN and WHO stamped that taxi number on it?
This has been explained again and again, Chuck. A US Army history center publication, written with the expressed purpose of recording the Ordnance Department's supply pratices during the war, says that tools were marked with taxi numbers during the war. You, a civilian hobbyist in the year 2013, are simply refusing to accept the US Army's authoritative document on the subject.

I hope you understand that you may desire to believe a scenario in which these wartime taxi numbers, obsolete in post-war Ordnance Department practices, were applied to wartime wrenches after the war was over. There is absolutely no reason for anyone else to take the patently cynical view in this case. In no logic system does your scenario dismiss the more reasonable scenario (wartime taxi numbers marked on wartime tools during wartime), which has the unassailable merit of simply following what the authoritative government publication says.
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