41-W-448 vs. 41-W-449?

[Fred Coldwell]

Hello Group. For what it is worth:

In the ORD 5-3-2 Stock List of All Items - Tools and Tool Equipment - Pricing Guide dated August 2, 1945 there is no listing for a 41-W-449 tool. Only tools numbered 41-W-448 ( auto type 11" ) and 41-W-450 (adjustable, auto type, length 15" ) are listed.

In the ORD 5-5-1 Cross-Reference Numbers Manual dated April 1954 again only the tools numbered 41-W-448 and 41-W-450 are listed.

Hi Tom:

Interesting data that makes Luke's Mother Army look better. Maybe Willys had a "hando" in their A-377 engineering drawing where in Note F added on 6-7-45 they describe the 11' adjustable auto wrench as a "-449". As we all know, 8 and 9 are adjacent numbers, so maybe the engineer who inserted Note F picked up a "bad" drafting pencil that day. Or maybe Willys was misinformed as to the True Identity of that 11" auto guy.

Anyway, and seriously, thank you for contributing additional factual data to help us all in our ongoing quest for tool truth.

[Chuck Lutz]

I ran across this today and thought im might be of interest to those who collect correct tools for their MB/GPW toolkits.

If you look at the inventory for the Gen. Mech. tool kit, you will find the elusive....41-W-448.....a 12" Adj. right along with the 41-W-486...an 8" Adj.

Now we KNOW that the 41-W-449 is the 11" Adj. from the WO drawing and from all the other manuals and lists, so you REALLY have to wonder about the appearance if a 12" Adj. in certain photos and other places doncha?

[Fred Coldwell]

If you look at the inventory for the Gen. Mech. tool kit, you will find the elusive....41-W-448.....a 12" Adj. right along with the 41-W-486...an 8" Adj. Now we KNOW that the 41-W-449 is the 11" Adj. from the WO drawing and from all the other manuals and lists, so you REALLY have to wonder about the appearance if a 12" Adj. in certain photos and other places doncha?

[Chuck Lutz]

Fred, that wrench is proof positive that someone in the manual making process, the 41-W number assignment division or at this wrench mfger has absolutely NO idea of what is going on with the wrenches....

We have mention of both the 11" as the 449 (the WO drawing and several manuals), the 12" as the 448 (then manual again) and the general confusion at the beginning of the program when even Willys used just the "41-W-" designation because the actual numbers had not been assigned yet.

Is this wrench mis-marked by the maker? Who knows?
Are all the manuals wrong and this wrench correct?
Is the WO drawing wrong?

I am always amused by the complete confusion and messed up things like this when it comes to us actually trying to sort out the tool kit because it seems even then, the designer, the maker and the purchaser are at odds with one another!

[Mark Tombleson]

There are several ways this could have happened.

One is that there is a mistake on the drawing... simply the guy doing the revision (B.W.I.) made the mistake of writing 449 down three places in that drawing on 6/7/45.

Another possibility is the wrench assembly is marked one way while the three individual parts on the wrench are another.

for example:

screw - 41-W-446
jaw - 41-W-447
handle - 41-W-448
Assembly - 41-W-449

I'm not saying this is the way it happened, but this is a possibility.

I know there are lots of assemblies very similar to the above that WO has... a progression of numbers for the parts of the assembly or even the condition or time within manufacture.

[Chuck Lutz]

Mark, there is something really messed up with this wrench identification that is for sure!

The G-27 Gen. Mech. Tool List shows a 41-W-488 as a 12" adj.
The 15 Jan 1944 SNL pg 121 says 41-W-488
The 15 Jan 1944 SNL pg 212 says 41-W-488 is 11" adj.
The 19 Jan 1945 ORD7 pg 11 says 41-W-488 is 11" adj.
The Feb 1944 TM 9-802 pg 49 says 41-W-449 is 11" adj.
The WO drawing says 41-W-449 is an 11" adj.
The Feb 1942 Ford packing List says 11" adj.

I'm sure others with more manuals available can add to this post..

[ANR2]

hey fellas thought I would chime in here with my 2 cents.My area of indepth research is not in the area of tools but the princibles are the same when it comes to looking at supply catalogs,official documents etc.. and first it is not that uncommon for there to be typo's such as using an A designator vs. the actual being B.In some catalogs they describe an item and give specification/stock number and the item pictured is not the same thing and /or list a different stock number which contradicts other catalogs also in some cases when an item is repeated throughout the document they sometimes show a different model that cleary has a different stock number on it this tends to be the case when an item has been replaced or superseded but they still use the older model for picture reference or the opposite occures using the new item with old stock number.In manuals in such it is not uncommon to show repack items as well that only adds to confusion when camparing the actual list to the items pictured.I too feel like I bang my head up against a wall when I try and iron these minute details out my point being is that I would have to agree with what was said before about the personnel that put this stuff together do noy know hide from tail about this stuff they are simply clerks in front of a typewriter and typing at whaterver amount of words per minute can easily type a 9 instead of an 8 and they make it very difficult for collectors with no consideration to us that want to know the facts.I have sympathy for your cause

[lucakiki]

Mark, there is something really messed up with this wrench identification that is for sure!

The G-27 Gen. Mech. Tool List shows a 41-W-488 as a 12" adj.
The 15 Jan 1944 SNL pg 121 says 41-W-488
The 15 Jan 1944 SNL pg 212 says 41-W-488 is 11" adj.
The 19 Jan 1945 ORD7 pg 11 says 41-W-488 is 11" adj.
The Feb 1944 TM 9-802 pg 49 says 41-W-449 is 11" adj.
The WO drawing says 41-W-449 is an 11" adj.
The Feb 1942 Ford packing List says 11" adj.

I'm sure others with more manuals available can add to this post..

Just to avoid misunderstandings:

41-W-488 is a Crescent type adjustable wrench, as mentioned in the G-27 etc., not an auto type. As a matter of fact, a similar number to the smaller 8" Crescent type wrench.
Same as the one soon deleted in jeep kits.

On page 121 of Jan 15 1944 SNL (G -503?) there is no tool of any kind.
On page 212 of Jan 15 1944 SNL ( actually it is page 213 !) there is no 41-W-488, but rather one 41-W-448,adjustable, auto type 11".

Things might be messed up, but let us not mess them up even more.

[Chuck Lutz]

Thanks Luca....I guess I've gotta give up beer for breakfast.....all these numbers give me a headache today!

[Mark Tombleson]

HAHAHA, my laugh for the day.

Are we there yet?

[Chuck Lutz]

Where?

[Fred Coldwell]

. . . On page 212 of Jan 15 1944 [ORD 9] SNL [G-503] ( actually it is page 213 !) there is no 41-W-488, but rather one 41-W-448,adjustable, auto type 11". Things might be messed up, but let us not mess them up even more.

Hi Luca:

For more confusion, look at page 188 of the same publication, ORD 9 SNL G-503 dated January 15, 1944, where Ordnance lists the Offical Stockage Number for the Willys A-377 11' auto wrench as . . . . 41-W-449! This is the number Willys added to its engineering drawing A-377 in Note F dated June 7, 1945. So it appears from ORD 9 SNL G-503 dated January 15, 1944 that Willys had a choice of using 41-W-448 as shown on page 213 or 41-W-449 as shown on page 188. They chose the later. Who is to say that is the incorrect choice? Certainly not Ordnance as of January 1944.

[lucakiki]

Fred,for sure I will not object to the revival of an old thread!
As a matter of fact,I was aware of what you rightly point out in those 2008 days already:that is why I had written the following.

Both 41-W-448 and W-449 do appear at times on a same manual.

My curiosity on the mistery had been triggered years ago by one of those Universal Metal Products auto type adjustables with the stock number forged in,similar to the one you posted.
When I had first acquired it (it is the very one pictured in John Barton's guide) I was puzzled and posted about it.
Still buried somewhere in an old post.

Since those far away days I made myself an opinion on my own on adjustables,auto type, and my choices when I assemble toolkits reflect what I kept learning.
As you might know I have it for an habit of reading and re-reading old posts on a given tool,and occasionally some of them appear as really funny in the light of what we now know.
Mauvaise charcuterie,at times!

P.S. One way to look at the Willys paperwork 41-W number is to consider it incomplete,possibly purposedly incomplete,rather than wrong.

[Chuck Lutz]

It is interesting to note that NONE of the different 11" Adj. wrenches (the auto type) we accept as correct for the factory tool kits have a "41-code" marking on them!

I suppose one could interpret the Willys drawing to say that it took until 6/7/45 for the drawing to be given a full "41-code" number (41-W-449) and until 1/10/50 for the requirement of that "41-W-449" to actually be put onto the wrench.

WO A-377 11 in. Adjustable Drawing.jpg (216.37 KiB) Viewed 2257 times

When the Universal "448" was produced would be nice to know!

[lucakiki]

Interesting maybe, but not surprising.
Quite a bunch of other tools,even if listed with a 41-letter stock number from the early stages,did not have that actually marked on the tool.
See hammers, just to name one.
As a matter of fact it has not yet been substantiated whether or not tools with a government stock number marked on them were or were not actually produced in war time,and there is plenty of discussions usually (but not always) polite on this very issue.