WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by mudbox » Tue May 16, 2017 7:04 pm

That's a shame about Rock Island. They made a quality vise. So did Athol. It's hard for me to imagine that these companies weren't contributing to the war effort by providing a product to that effort that they were well known for. Maybe they converted their facilities during the war years to make something else? Or their contracts fell short of the 50,000 mark. :?:
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Tue May 16, 2017 7:31 pm

All kinds of possibilities. They may have subcontracted, or, like Wilton, sold vises directly to OEM's like IH, Buick, etc that those OEMs used for war production in their manufacturing plants. Did you see the sizes of the contracts for the vise mfgrs on the "A" list that DID HAVE multiple contracts? It amounts to almost $2M. How many machinists vises did the QMC, Ordnance Dept, and Navy need? My position on this issue remains the same. It's easy (in my opinion TOO easy) to assume that Athol and Rock Island may have had smaller contracts. But if the QMC and ORD had no problem offering several huge contracts to Columbian, Desmond Stephan, Morgan, Reed, and Prentiss, why wouldn't they follow the same acquisition approach with Athol and Rock Island? If none of them had contracts, I might give more credence to the theory. When many do, and a few don't, I think it's a tough sell. Which is why I have the same position with the handful of tool mfgrs also not in the books.

And there are other sources. There's a possibility of finding proof for the "C" listers in other documents, TMs, etc. Then again, it's no coincidence that the vise makers in the contracts books also have pictures of their vises in the ORD 6 and the Class 41.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Tue May 16, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Mark Tombleson » Tue May 16, 2017 7:33 pm

Ah, quoting the book here...

"Because of the lag in reporting, this listing does not include a substantial number of the contracts awarded June thru September 1945. Undercoverage of awards for prior periods is believed not to be significant."

In stating this they are leaving the door open a small amount. Contracts over the $50000 amount have been found that are not in the MWSC list.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Wed May 17, 2017 3:53 am

Mark Tombleson wrote:In stating this they are leaving the door open a small amount. Contracts over the $50000 amount have been found that are not in the MWSC list.
There is that possibility. Personally, I would rather see proof than lean on a possibility that Rock Island had smaller contracts than all the other vise mfgrs, or that Rock Island had very late war contracts that may not have been reported before the books were printed in late 1945, but everyone is free to do what they want. I am just reporting what the data actually says.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Mark Tombleson » Wed May 17, 2017 12:59 pm

We are always on the hunt for documentation... a Rock Island contract may be there just waiting to be discovered! :D


The contract I would most like to see is NXsr-40994. The odds are long but there is always hope! :D
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Wed May 17, 2017 1:04 pm

Mark Tombleson wrote:We are always on the hunt for documentation... a Rock Island contract may be there just waiting to be discovered! :D
Or a RAPD figure in some as yet un-scrutinized TM.
Mark Tombleson wrote:The contract I would most like to see is NXsr-40994. The odds are long but there is always hope! :D
Are you going to make me guess? Or should I know this one?
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:40 pm

Big reversal of fortune to report on "Rock Island." See List A thread.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:04 am

Note: I can no longer edit the list in post #1.

UPDATE

"Androck" screwdrivers have been a pretty safe bet for WWII collectors for years, but if anyone had any doubts, or you just like research, I just posted conclusive evidence on the WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST A (VERIFIED) thread, linked here.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by d42jeep » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:22 pm

I’m still surprised that there haven’t been contracts found for Thorsen since I’ve found so many examples of unplated tools.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by d42jeep » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:03 am

I spotted and ordered these on eBay this morning. They do raise some questions.
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B1CDBF63-C811-4112-A108-D5D9FBA8A391.jpeg
Thorsen QMC marked sockets
BE206E0B-E93E-4697-9720-EA1BC176C596.jpeg
Thorsen QMC marked sockets
C7780848-7CA7-4967-A090-5BEDDBF1321F.jpeg
Thorsen QMC marked sockets
CDA50539-5B78-482E-AB47-18F070492260.jpeg
Thorsen QMC marked sockets
DEEB573B-33EA-4E3A-85BE-118D1AFB78C3.jpeg
Thorsen QMC marked sockets
57035686-E846-46AA-AB11-BDD949E48CF3.jpeg
Thorsen QMC marked sockets
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:44 pm

What questions?

Sorry I didn't see your previous post until now. Yeah, weird anomaly. There are better empirical indicators that they were a supplier than finding unplated tools. Thorsen DLBs have shown up in military surplus boxes. And AA apparently has some references that indicated the company grew during WWII under the new owners, who bought out Ned Boyd and the other guys who left P&C in 1940 when the company was in dire straits. The only thing I can think of is that they were very small. Per AA, $40,000 total sales in 1941 to $154,000 total sales in 1944. With those kinds of paltry numbers compared to most OEMs, and the $50,000 minimum value on the WPB contracts books, easy to see how their contracts may have been too small to register.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by d42jeep » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:46 pm

Regardless of contract size, I was happy to see Thorsen QMC marked sockets. I hadn’t seen any before these.
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:50 am

I'm just explaining why Thorsen may not show up in the books, Don, and why they're on the C list. I don't think anyone cares about the size of an OEMs contract otherwise.

Still wondering what is questionable about the QMC sockets?
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:26 am

Another Post #1 Update in the 'NO EDIT' era...

In the "WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST A (VERIFIED)" thread I recently posted Google Books Library links for three (3) new major wartime references published by the WPB Industrial Statistics Division in late 1945, or the CPA (formerly WPB) ISD in 1946, linked here. One of them is sorted by company name and has a $50,000 minimum. The other is sorted by state and county, and has no minimum. All of them have the same purpose. Listing companies that received funds to upgrade their manufacturing facilities explicitly for war production, by total, product (e.g., Castings, Hand Tools, Dies, Ammunition, etc), and agency (e.g., WPB, WD, Navy, Defense Plant Corporation, Signal Corps, etc). So, not contracts, like the Major War Supply Contracts lists, but just as if not more significant.

Curious to see who got what, my first breeze through it was some arbitrary look-ups of my favorite OEMs (e.g., Bonney? $244,000 from the WD, Snap-on? $350,000 from the WD, Plomb? $162,000 from the WD, Vlchek? $0 - that's right $0!).

This morning I cracked them open from the LIST C (NO CONTRACTS) perspective. I did not look up every company in post #1, just a few of the ones I am most interested in; I will go back to the others at some point.

VERIFIED
- Apex in Dayton, Ohio, recv'd $127,000 from the WD for machine and hand tools
- Nixdorf-Krein recv'd $56,000 from the DPC for chains

STILL QUESTIONABLE
Moore Drop Forge recv'd $635,000 from the WPB, but it does not list hand tools. "Aircraft Forgings, Tank Forgings, Jeep Forgings, and Forgings"

NO RECORDS*
- Champion DeArment is not included in the by company name list, and it doesn't show up in the companies listed under Crawford (Meadville) County in Pennsylvania, either.
- MAC, Mechanics Tool & Forge, or Clinton Tool Company is not included in the by company name list, and they don't show up in the companies listed under Clinton (Sabina) or Summit (Akron) Counties in Ohio
- Thorsen is not included in the by company name list and it doesn't show up in the companies listed under San Francisco or Alameda Counties

* Still possible their contracts were under $50,000 and they recv'd $0 funding for plant upgrades
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Re: WARTIME SUPPLIERS: LIST C (NO CONTRACTS)

Post by d42jeep » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:40 am

That’s disappointing about Champion deArment. I’ve collected quite a few of the 1933 patent 420s.
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