2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by mudbox » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:00 pm

That thing is cool as hell!
Looks like it stands up by itself like an well worn pair of jeans!
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Len Jones » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:48 am

Hi Greg - Nice find, perhaps this is it ?

From my archive - ' Bag BG-44 with carrying strap ', with this drawn date of 21 April 1947. I assume the 44 would indicate model 44 = 1944, and redrawn in 1947 ?

Sizes are 21'' long X 7'' wide at the base X 8'' high

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Bag BG-44.JPG
Bag BG-44 with carrying strap
21 April 1947.JPG
Drawn 21 April 1947
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:19 am

Len,

Thanks for the lead and the drawings!

I think you are almost spot-on. I do believe what I have here is a Navy version of the same bag, or same bag design principle or style, with both of them (the BG-44 and this one) probably built to older federal specifications. The polygonal (not rectangular) shape, the support corners, front flap with straps, the carry strap, the insert, and even those two wing-like flaps to keep the weather out of the seams between the front flap and the sides of the bag are all either identical or very similar. But this bag is smaller. It measures 17" x 8" x 8", it is heavier and stiffer than the BG-44's I have seen in person, it doesn't incorporate a carry handle at the top, and those anchors are impossible to ignore! HAHA.

Note that the date of the re-drawing is 1947, but the date of the original drawing is built into the original drawing number at the bottom: 2-3-33. And it was part of a set of drawings made between 2-3-33 and 2-3-38. (Interesting to see "War Department" on a 1947 document, but it wasn't dissolved until late in the year, when the Army, Air Force and of course the Navy were made separate services under a cabinet-level Department of Defense.) Which confirms my suspicions about this bag being possibly even older than WWII.

What I am scratching my head about most in astonishment is in seeing what I always took to be Signal Corps nomenclature (BG- for Bag, CH- for Chest, CS- for Case, TE- for Tool Equipment, TL for Tool, etc, link to full list on Radionerds site here) on a QMC document. I have never seen that before. In fact, I have never seen any other part number from any other technical branch use that nomenclature. WTH? :?:

The "44" in BG-44 is a model number. The Signal Corps had over two-hundred types of bags, all with a unique identifier. BG-1 through BG-216. The BG-44 was used to carry various toolsets, including TE-21, TE-27, TE-36, and TE-41.

Here are some actual photos of a BG-44 from the Radionerds site.

800px-BG-44_1.jpg
400px-BG-44_2.jpg

I am hoping SillysMB or AZ Jeff or someone has some thoughts on all this.
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by AZ Jeff » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:24 am

I would not be surprised if the general design came from the Bell System. Their old stuff looks mighty "military"...

Jeff Q.
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PS: and you know my thoughts on those anchor snaps... :wink:

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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:09 pm

AZ Jeff wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:24 am
I would not be surprised if the general design came from the Bell System. Their old stuff looks mighty "military"...
That it does! And they had many of the same suppliers. Have you ever seen Bell System FAK's? Same exact box as the jeep box, same stuff (Davis, etc) always inside. The #4 Dayton pattern axe on my 45 Willys MB was BELL SYSTEM and none the wiser. And since I was never fond of unit markings and never put them on my jeep, I once gussied it up with Bell System stuff to play a lineman's jeep.
AZ Jeff wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:24 am
PS: and you know my thoughts on those anchor snaps... :wink:
And I agree with them. For everyone else, Jeff informed that the anchor is a maker's mark found on many WWII era buckles and also well into 'Nam. I'm back to it being an Army bag. :)
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Silly's MB » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:48 pm

Nice bag Greg,
I cant find anything other than the BG-44 at the moment. Do you think yours had a handle where the rivets are on top ?
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Silly's MB » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:26 pm

The rivets and detailing look like this one.
https://www.kpemig.de/US-Signal-Corps-W ... BG-44-Used
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us-signal-corps-wwii-bag-bg-44-used_7.jpg
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Len Jones » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:33 pm

If it helps some more information ?

Len
Attachments
1.JPG
External detail
2.JPG
Internal detail
3.jpg
Bag & it's contents
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:50 am

Silly's MB wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:48 pm
Nice bag Greg,
I cant find anything other than the BG-44 at the moment. Do you think yours had a handle where the rivets are on top ?
Thanks, Roger. I love it, but it's impossible for me to convey just how stiff it is. I have handled a lot of WWII canvas, as you can imagine, and I have never seen anything this stiff. I cleaned it up with scalding hot water, mild soap, and a brush the other day. After an hour or so it was very supple and I was able to manipulate it and strap it up the way it was intended. I was was so pleased with myself I took a few more photos. This morning, it is as stiff as a board again. Whatever they impregnated it with worked and then some! :)

No handle is missing (as your next post and photo also attests). The two pair of rivets in a row are for the stiffener going across the bag at the top. The two sets of two vertical rivets are for the straps.

20201024_141936.jpg
20201024_142124.jpg
20201024_142129.jpg
Silly's MB wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:26 pm
The rivets and detailing look like this one.
https://www.kpemig.de/US-Signal-Corps-W ... BG-44-Used
That is the same exact bag, no doubt about it.

The source remains a mystery.

AZ Jeff sent me a photo of a buckle he has originally found on a Willys MB door strap that bears the same anchor logo. And he said he has seen the anchor logo on buckles and snaps and such on 'Nam gear. But doesn't know the company name.

tin medic sent me photos of Army tourniquets from the 60's that have buckles with the same anchor logo. The tourniquets were made by Industries for the Blind.

I found two potential references in the WPB contracts books.

Anchor Canvas Products Corporation in Pleasantville, NY ($753,000 for buckets, folding canvas buckets, canvas basins, and M1936 belts, with Navy and QMC), and...

Anchor Duck Mills in Rome, Georgia ($5,572,000 for duck, duck cotton, canvas cotton, cloth, cotton duck cloth, webbing, cotton rope, and nylon duck cloth, with Navy and QMC).

Not thrilled with either one.

The first made finished products, but I'd feel better if it included bags, and it seems kind of small.

The second is very large, and I found a reference that described their trademark as an anchor with a rope wrapped around the shank, but these anchors are plain, and these types of mills (Rome was a major center for many of them) didn't make finished products, they made the material that others were using to make finished products.
Len Jones wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:33 pm
If it helps some more information
Thanks, Len. It does help. It might help more if I could read the small text and figures, but when I save it and expand it, they go fuzzy. I suspect it would be the same if you emailed it to me. The drawing is still a mystery to me irrespective of the bag itself. Still don't fully understand why the QMC, under the auspices of the WD, would have a drawing for a bag with Signal Corps nomenclature in 1933, or in 1947.
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Silly's MB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:29 am

Greg , the bag I posted earlier does have a handle where the 4 horizontal rivets are so I would suggest yours is missing.

Do you think the anchor could possibly only relate to the metalwork ? You could look up North and Judd in the contracts .
https://nbindustrial.org/collection/north-judd/
Attachments
us-signal-corps-wwii-bag-bg-44-used_11 (2).jpg
anchor brand logo.jpg
us-signal-corps-wwii-bag-bg-44-useda.jpg
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Empty vessels make the most noise .......

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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:48 am

Thanks, Roger. And yes that is what I was thinking. Could just be a buckle maker.
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Silly's MB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:57 am

1904 buckle
https://cdm16630.contentdm.oclc.org/dig ... l4/id/1026

1952 mention as a subcontractor for gas masks.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J-E ... es&f=false

Article about problems of procurement mentioning North and Judd buckle pressed black nickel.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D-3 ... es&f=false
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Empty vessels make the most noise .......

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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:38 pm

Thanks, Roger. I think that's it. They registered that TM in 1928. They had about a dozen contracts with the QMC and Navy between 1940 and 1945 worth $1,006,000.
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:43 pm

Meager pickings in November so far, Gents. G503-relevant keepers from my last three small hauls included...

...a Barcalo 28S DOE wrench, a deep Craftsman (H)3/8-drive socket, a deep Plomb 52xx 3/8-drive socket, and a 1/2-drive "-D-I-" socket in this lot...
20201115_085203.jpg

..."E" stamped Blue-Point flare nut wrench, Champion-DeArment No. 420 pump pliers with the correct patent, and the postwar Plomb 5295 3/8-drive socket set box in this lot...
20201119_092956.jpg

...and a couple more "-D-I-" sockets and an Armstrong DOE wrench with "WHIT." markings and a Merlin-Packard part number in this lot...
20201120_092038.jpg
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Re: 2020 Vision - Wingnutt's Flea Market Finds

Post by Wingnutt » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:52 pm

The Plomb box was filled with miscellaneous DBEs, no drive tools, and three of them helped me complete an 81xx series set.

20201119_141219.jpg
20201119_141338.jpg
20201119_141722.jpg

The box itself cleaned up so well I decided to put all my Plomb and Extended Plomb Family 3/8-drive orphan pieces inside it. Mix of Plomb 52xx, Plomb WF-, and a few Proto LA.

20201120_113655.jpg

Lastly, here's that Armstrong HI-TENSILE wrench. I love the way they put the milled opening sizes in decimal inches on the jaws just in case the Whitworth nut and bolt size markings on the shank were confusing! :D The AT- number cross-references to the Merlin-Packard kit.

20201120_153522.jpg
20201120_153605.jpg
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