Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

1956-1966, Hotchkiss, Quarter-ton jeep® series, Wanted, For Sale, and Knowledge Base
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Gene2013
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Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Gene2013 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:53 am

Hi, myself and my brother got a call from a mate who acquired a jeep a month ago and he wished to get our opinion on it as we have a '42 GPW script and a '44 MB. So, we went to look at it today and it has bits of Ford, MB and M201 in it. The tub looks looks to be a WW2 composite one as the toe board gussets are wrong for an M201 and tub is the same as my brother's '44 MB.

I think the frame is M201 as it has the french numbers (one is very low like 2066 or something) so it could be very early French jeep but the holes are in the correct place near the front bumper gusset for the tags where you would attach a WILLYS serial number tag but the tag is long gone.
We think the gauge of steel used in the frame is a slightly heavier gauge but we need to take a caliper reading later for me to compare to my GPW. The frame has capture nuts in it for a splash plate behind the battery tray.

My brother came across an article online a few months ago while doing research that the Americans had French contractors rebuilding damaged jeeps for the them PRIOR the end of the war BEFORE the French commenced building/re-building jeeps for THEIR Armed Forces in the early 1950's.

Anyway, our friend with the newly acquired jeep has the engine stripped and the following is stamped on the bottom flange of the block where the oil pan goes:

L17
+045
+050

Any ideas what these stampings mean?

Thanks

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Stanles
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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Stanles » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:36 am

ITM Jeep

http://www.m201.com/ITM/ITM.htm


can you add photos?
1960 - GAZ 69M
1952 - M38
1951 - M100 Trailer
1959 - ITM Jeep

Willys FOREVER

Gene2013
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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Gene2013 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:27 am

Stanles wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:36 am
ITM Jeep

http://www.m201.com/ITM/ITM.htm


can you add photos?
I will try to get photos when I am round his way next time. Thanks

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Stanles
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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Stanles » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:19 pm

OK.

My ITM Jeep
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1960 - GAZ 69M
1952 - M38
1951 - M100 Trailer
1959 - ITM Jeep

Willys FOREVER

Gene2013
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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Gene2013 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:41 pm

That is a nice jeep. You will enjoy driving it:)


70th Division
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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by 70th Division » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:36 pm

Hello,

Yes indeed, he will, since he has it almost restored back to a new condition :D :D :D :D
Driving that beauty through the Czech countryside, it doesn't get better than that !!

Looking forward to more updates on that Jeep !

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by 70th Division » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 pm

Hello Gene,

As far as the stampings go, I would assume that the +45 and +50 would designate that the
engine has been overhauled and rebuilt twice with oversized pistons.

It is very standard practice to put tags on engines rebuilt by the Military stating such.

I have some on my vehicles here in the USA, that post the new piston sizes.

Best Regards,

Ray

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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by 70th Division » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:13 pm

Gene,

The link Stanles posted has great info on it to determine if your friend has a US frame or a WOF frame.

If you have the rivet holes for a Willys frame tag, likely it is a US frame that went through the great French rebuilt program.
I have a ex-French MB here in the USA that has a US MB frame, with the holes where a Willys tag was once on the frame.
The jeep also has many US holes welded shut, like the first aid kit holes on the dash, the hood block holes, etc.
The jeep was rebuilt at La Maltornee, but is designated as a Willys MB, and a VLTT jeep on the French dataplates.
It has an original MB engine, with French "Doublex" data plates added to it.

I will be working on getting it running next, after I get my 42 GPW running again.
It was also a "Command Jeep" at one time in French service, having had pedals installed on the passenger side to teach jeep driving to new recruits :D
It also has many WOF, and Ford parts on it, and it has an ACM number on the body gussett.
Rebuilt in 1962 in France, abandoned in the USA since its arrival as surplus.
Everything is still on it, and I look forward to getting it rolling again, and will add a couple French Flags, painted over the wheel wells, as a WW2 French Jeep.

After that will be my British Desert Rat Jeep, that somehow too, arrived in America many moons ago, and was rescued by the seller from a fallen down barn, and then to me :D :D
This jeep has special meaning to me, as my father was in a Prison Camp with a Desert Rat ( captured in North Africa, and taken to Germany on an Italian U-boat) , well before my father arrived at the POW Labor camp in Eastern Germany near Dresden.
(IV-B and 5-A Lillienstein .) All the US 70th Division GI's , that survived the camp , always spoke very highly of him.

He was a real inspiration to the Americans when they arrived at the camp, and kept their spirits up during their starvation.
The Americans never were given any Red Cross packets, but were sometimes given bread made from sawdust, or wood flour, as the Germans called it.

Now I feel like brewing up some hot tea :D :D :D

Best Regards,
Ray

Gene2013
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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Gene2013 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:23 pm

70th Division wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:13 pm
Gene,

The link Stanles posted has great info on it to determine if your friend has a US frame or a WOF frame.

If you have the rivet holes for a Willys frame tag, likely it is a US frame that went through the great French rebuilt program.
I have a ex-French MB here in the USA that has a US MB frame, with the holes where a Willys tag was once on the frame.
The jeep also has many US holes welded shut, like the first aid kit holes on the dash, the hood block holes, etc.
The jeep was rebuilt at La Maltornee, but is designated as a Willys MB, and a VLTT jeep on the French dataplates.
It has an original MB engine, with French "Doublex" data plates added to it.

I will be working on getting it running next, after I get my 42 GPW running again.
It was also a "Command Jeep" at one time in French service, having had pedals installed on the passenger side to teach jeep driving to new recruits :D
It also has many WOF, and Ford parts on it, and it has an ACM number on the body gussett.
Rebuilt in 1962 in France, abandoned in the USA since its arrival as surplus.
Everything is still on it, and I look forward to getting it rolling again, and will add a couple French Flags, painted over the wheel wells, as a WW2 French Jeep.

After that will be my British Desert Rat Jeep, that somehow too, arrived in America many moons ago, and was rescued by the seller from a fallen down barn, and then to me :D :D
This jeep has special meaning to me, as my father was in a Prison Camp with a Desert Rat ( captured in North Africa, and taken to Germany on an Italian U-boat) , well before my father arrived at the POW Labor camp in Eastern Germany near Dresden.
(IV-B and 5-A Lillienstein .) All the US 70th Division GI's , that survived the camp , always spoke very highly of him.

He was a real inspiration to the Americans when they arrived at the camp, and kept their spirits up during their starvation.
The Americans never were given any Red Cross packets, but were sometimes given bread made from sawdust, or wood flour, as the Germans called it.

Now I feel like brewing up some hot tea :D :D :D

Best Regards,
Ray
Hi, some great info there.. The Command jeep sounds very unique indeed :). I must check the gusset on that guys's jeep when I am round there again to see if there is a number on it, the M201 toe board gussets have a different center hole in them unlike the one on the composite one. This one has gussets like a composite tub.

Those doublex plates you mention on the engine is there a large one and a small one?

Do you know did the French ever do anything to the frames, I read once the steel is heavier on the rails in the French made one but I forget and need to read up on it again, I willy read Stanles link. I wonder did the french ever replace the rails on MB frames to strengthen them?

Some great war history there too.

I hope you took your Tea, I am just in from working on my GPW but I am going to have some Irish Whiskey instead of tea or perhaps whiskey in my tea or tea in my whiskey ha!! Sometimes a whiskey with a drop of boiling water from the kettle is nicer than a 'hot whiskey' with all the lemon piece etc and easier to make....... :)

You sound like us here (My brother and I) jeeps, sidecars , motorbikes some running some on the waiting list and not enough time to get round to it all, Ah alas, they will get done some day............................. but GPW7588 will be first as there very little wrong with it. I use it as often as the car when it on the road. It has been off the road for about 3 years and I may take it to Normandy this year, we will see, it is booked on the ferry to Normandy though.......... Joe's MB is nearly finished a full overhaul and paint job. It will be lovely.

Take care..........

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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by 70th Division » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:15 pm

Hello Gene,


I did make the Tea :D :D

The engine is an MB engine, on the driver's side lower it has a small rectangular "Doublex" tag and just below that, a large rectangular French rebuild tag with the MB engine number stamped on it.
So yes , one small and one large data plates.

I know the French built their M201s with a lot of nice refinements to improve the jeep in small ways.

The front bumper does appear to be of a thicker steel gauge.
The frame is a US MB, but a new french bumper was put on it in the 1962 rebuild.
As far as I know, the French rebuilt anything that could be rebuilt.
Replacing frame sections, I do not know, but if they could technically do it, I would think they did .
I will note that on my ACM body, they did replace the rear wheel wells with WOF ones, and tack welded them into position.
So that is something that they did do at their great rebuild shops in Paris.


I have some nice Irish Whiskey on hand for special occasions, and for Saint Patrick's Day, we had plenty of Guinness with the Corned Beef and Cabbage here in America.
I also have a lot of London Dry Gin as well :D :D :D :D
Not to mention all the great Sierra Nevada beers , and multiple American micro beers that are among the world's finest !!!

Top that off with the Outstanding Trump Winery Red Wines, a lot of Jeep work gets done :D :D :D
https://www.trumpwinery.com/

No really !!

President Trump is flying WW2 Normandy Invasion Veterans and their families with him to Normandy this June , and back !!!
That is real class :D :D :D

He frequently honors WW2 Veterans at the White House and in public as well.
You sound like you have a great collection there in Ireland !!!
I hope you all get your Jeeps to Normandy !!!
Keep 'em Rolling all the way there and back :D :D :D

I imagine my 1942 Willys Desert Rat Jeep landed on Gold Beach in 44 so I hope to get her back there someday !!

God Bless all the WW2 Veterans and their Families !!



Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Stampings on the bottom of HWOF engine?

Post by Paul Randazzo » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:42 pm

Hello Gene,
I just read your post. I agree with Ray, those stampings might indicate cylinder over bore sizes. My Hotchkiss engine is missing it’s overhaul data plate. The rivet holes are present but the plate is gone. I see Stanles gave you the link to Andy Carter’s M201 Jeep page, good info and history found there. I attached another link on the bottom. This is another site you can check out. It has nice pictures and good explanations. On the left side of the page click Maintenance and other Jeep info. There you will also find the pictures and instructions on how to correctly fold and stow your summer top. Enjoy and happy motoring.
Regards,
Paul

http://www.sacarr.co.uk/mymvs/jeep/jeep.htm
1960 Hotchkiss M201
1951 JDF 1/4 ton
Fleet Automotive Tech ret
Chief Veh Maint Mech Museum of American Armor Old Bethpage NY

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