transmission assembly part 1

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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transmission assembly part 1

Post by john barton » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:54 pm

Transmission assembly part 1

I have photo’d and reassembled a transmission..
There are too many photo’s- so I’m going to have to break it up
I should have covered this first part with my last post..
first thing to assemble is the counterhsaft gear..and there
are several pieces involved.
Image
this is a picture of a bad bushing in the back end
Image
the front end is a little better, but both bushings
and the spacer need to come out
Image
I use a bushing driver from a set with different sizes.. others
Are needed on jeep.. so set paid off..just drive from one end,
And bushings and spacer come out.
Image
putting them in is just the opposite..same driver, the pic shows some
of the different types of bushings I’ve come across.
Some slide in countershaft gear..some need driving,
Some need to be reamed, some don’t..I have seen different
Combinations..it depend on what you get when you buy them
Image
pic of countershaft, bushings and spacer, and countershaft gear..
Image
there was a post earlier that discussed the various bushings
..I do not know if it is a ford/willys thing
there are holes in gear..
and holes in bushings.they do not need to be lined up
Image
I use the same driver to insert..one in one end, spacer from other side,
And then 2nd bushing..I have used an expandable reamer..
and I have taken the assembled gear to a machine shop for reaming

The assembled gear must go in the case..the front thrust washer
And the rear thrust washer with spacer must be in place
I do just what the 1803B says..put a good coat of grease on them
To hold them in place..(no grease for photo)
Image
Image
the earlier post had pics of index pin/ front notches
and how to set etc..
tilt the gear so backend goes out rear bearing hole..
Image
level it off, line it up, and lower…
it will probably take a few times…the fit between washers is slim
I usually knock them off a few times before I get it right
Let it drop to bottom
Sometimes the fit is very tight…I have had to play with different combinations
Of thrust washers etc..
I did measure the thicknesses once....there were several variations
I have lapped them down..and cleaned up case surface if necessary
When I do get it to set right..I test fit everything by
Using this sears rolling pin pry bar as a substitute mainshaft..
Image
hold gear with one hand…raise it slightly and slide bar in..
I roll gear, get grease spread out to hold washers..
Image
Then slowly remove..holding gear again and letting
It settle to bottom of case..

From now on…try not to turn case to much…you want the
Thrust washers to stay in place..
The manual says put idler in first…I find it easier to
Put cluster assemble in first
Image
Then idler gear…cone end toward front
Insert shaft from rear…pay attention to notch on
shaft…the notch must line up to accept locking plate..
And this small shaft is harder to turn when all the way in..
The locking plate will do a final line up..but easier to set it close now.

The next part to go in is output shaft…book says
Insert from rear of case and slide gears on..
It is easier to put gears on and them slide whole assembly in
One of the gears that goes on output shaft is synchro..the directions in
different places are not quite clear on how to do this..
You need the springs in..
Locking plates in place, outer hub on..
Some instructions use clock system, or put in one, turn it over
And do same thing, etc..
The easiest explanation of springs is picture
Image
hold the plates with your fingers and slide
outer hub over..a little oil helps.
Outer hub should slide back and forth..you’ll see action of plates and springs
the next picture shows various types of locking plates I’ve seen
short, curved, long and flat…I have come across many..
I think it is just important to have three matching ones..
You should always buy a new synchro and blocking rings..
Image
the first/reverse gear goes on output shaft, fork channel to rear
then second gear.taper towar front..it only goes on a short distance
Image
Then blocking ring..the small brass gear..
Then synchro…. Long end of hub toward front
line up notches in blocking ring with plates on synchro..
put snap ring in front of synchro..slide gears toward front..
Image
tilt and put back end of assembly out rear hole in case..
just let it sit there
Image
now assemble input shaft
bearing with snap ring goes on…shielded side toward case
snap ring holds it on…
Image
now is usually when I call my daughter because my fat fingers
won’t fit in to install roller bearings in back end of input
grease them up..
she doesn’t like the icky grease!!!
the last one has to slide in from top..sharp needle
nose…
Image
the snap ring that holds them in doesn’t really touch them..
never taken that snap ring out..i guess if you buy a new input shaft
it will come without it..little tricky to install..pliers..screwdrivers, etc..
again- you need to be careful now..if you drop or set down to hard..
the bearings will fall out..
now comes another tricky part…
put other blocking ring in place..use grease to hold in in synchro
or put it on back of input shaft and line up notches again..
you need to slide rear bearing on- to line up output shaft..
after spacer and oil baffle..snap ring is already on..

and put input shaft in case..lined up…so that when they meet
front end of output shaft fits inside roller bearings..
Image
the front bearing is usually tight…and the output shaft may slide around,,
so line up straight and push both bearings into case..

if you get fit correct first time..it will look like this
Image
if not…one of the rollers fell out…they won’t mesh..
you’ll be able to tell..cause you’ll feel it grinding etc..
gentle tapping on bearing may be necessary to finish..
I try to insert output shaft tip..into roller bearings, and them tap front bearing into case...keeps rollers from falling..
hold on to both shafts from now onwhile moving…
if either moves out..roller bearing or blocking
ring can fall out of place..

with both shafts in place..
some people wire them ..to hold them..

just be careful..you’re ready to raise countershaft gear..
you can’t get input shaft in with countershaft in place..so
don’t try to do that before now..
here’s what I do…there are other methods
Image

I turn case on side with idler gear down..it helps locate
Countershaft gear..I use the rollin head pry bar again..from front..
It is sharply tapered so it can usuall get thru thrustwashers..which settled with gear..
I slowly and gently try to get it all the way through..
Turn the case completely upside down..
Image

Turn the input shaft…that helps center and line up
the countershaft gear and washers..
Now the trick is to replace prybar with mainshaft..
Insert from rear…line up notches for lockplate again..
Some people have a special tool machined..probably easier to insert mainshaft
As you slide tool out….either way..? you can do it without any tool…
when case is upside down..if you turn gears..
the countershaft will center itself..
put lockplate in place..leave mainshaft out just a hair..
after front end is lined up..tap both shafts with hammer
Image
if notches are not lined up exactly..the lockplate may
turn them into position..or you may need to turn shafts…
look at the neat “F” on extra lockplate..
now if you have lined everything up…
Image
slide 1st/reverse gear to this position..neutral..
the input and output shaft should turn independently..
squirt a few drops of oil on synchro’s blocking rings etc..
a new, dry, transmission does not turn or shift easily..
Image
last pic is that same gear in three positions
in first-..turn input shaft..output should turn same direction
in reverse-.. the output shaft will turn opposite direction
I have the remaining photo’s for top end ..
I’ll try to post 2morrow
..comments and tips appreciated..I do have one tip that
is supposed to make shifting easier..
I put some pics up in a post last year..I’ll try to dig them out..
It involves making sure that the distances between blocking rings
and gears is the same at both ends..
Thanks, john
Last edited by john barton on Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by demon » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:34 am

Wow John you should do a book/manual of CD or something... If only I had your ifno when I did my first gearbox.
Your work and attention to detail is outstanding.... keep up the good work.

When's the transfer box going to be on the forum :wink: :?:
demon :twisted:

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Post by Mighty Eighth » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:40 am

John, another fine job. Your pics and descriptions are outstanding. Novice should find following your descriptions and photos "a walk in the park." Thanks for the great work and sharing with us. :wink: gary
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Post by Dino! » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:22 pm

I have used an expandable reamer..
and I have taken the assembled gear to a machine shop for reaming
John,
I'm a little unclear about what you talking about here. Are you saying after you reinstall the bearing the unit needs to be reamed? Where and What needs to be reamed? My apologies in advance for my ignorance. :oops:

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Post by john barton » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:45 pm

some mainshaft bushings that i have used did need to be reamed
in order for main shaft to fit in gear after new bushings...

most often the bushings have needed to be pressed in..gently
not hammered or anything..and the mainshaft did fit..

I do not know the reasoning for this..maybe they aren't the correct
ones..

some manuals state that these bushings are free to turn in gear..
and free to turn on mainshaft..

in the picture of the four bushings..the third one..with question mark
is of that type..it floats in gear..and turns on shaft..you can see that it is a skinnier design

in the articles about the teardown reports..these bushing were always mentioned as worn..and there are the changes to the oil level, etc
during it's use...i have only seen one referece to reaming..and i will have to look for it...perhaps there was a later bushing..a post war parts does have a superceded bushing..
I do not know if it is an early/late thing..or if just a wrong bushing..
but some bushings will not allow mainshaft to fit after pressed into gear....?
john


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Post by Bob N » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:21 am

There are two types of cluster gears, the type that take the slip fit and the type that take the pressed fit. If you have the pressed fit cluster gear then you will need to ream the bushing from 1.1275 to 1.280 inches. Reamers are very expensive for a quality unit...however, you could purchase an imported adjustable reamer for about $29. Depending on the going rate at your local, it might be cheaper just to purchase a new cluster gear with the bushings installed..for around $55 (give or take the price of oil and Euros).

According to Al Brass the the "free floating bushings are a Ford design, fixed were Warner (MB)." In order to use the free floating design to be used the bearing surface must be nicely finished. On my most recent rebuild a $55 gear was purchased, it was made by Lewis Gear and it was made to the "Warner specs, not Ford."

Whichever countershaft you have or use, make sure that when it comes time, you purchase the correct bushings for it.
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Post by john barton » Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:54 am

the mainshaft diameter is .620 inches..
reaming the bushings to 1.280 will make
the gear wobble a little!!!
john


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Post by Bob N » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:23 pm

John you are right! That is a typo and should apply to the Second Gear Bushing!

The correct measurements? The bushings should be replaced if the outside diameter of the bushing is less than 0.759 or if the inside diameter is more than 0.6225 inch. Reaming is not addressed.

The countershaft is to be replaced if it measures under 0.7490.

Measurements accordign to TM 9-1803B. I haven't consulted the TM 10s.
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Post by john barton » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:08 pm

You are confusing the heck out of me bob...
the countershaft dimension is .620...!
now you say it needs to be replaced if under .7490..
that's what is in 1803B...but it does not make sense..
it is a mistake...!
the max inside diameter of bushing is given as .6225
the idle shaft and countershaft are same .620..
the idle gear bushing is to be reamed to .623 to .624..

between the reaming.. and max inside diameter
that's .0025 to .004 clearance on bushing to shaft...about right..!
john

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Post by Dr Deuce » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:07 pm

I remember hearing someplace that if some part was installed incorrectly or in the wrong way/place, that gear oil will migrate/be pumped from the transmission to the transfer or vice-versa. Is this true, and if so, what is the part that would be installed incorrectly. My GPW does this

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Tranny talk

Post by 42GPW » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:53 pm

Understanding that my 42 GPW is 60 plus years old. Can i down shift from any of the gears that i am in. My dad and i rebuilt the tranny but didnt use all new parts, Also its leaking really bad. Dad being a mechanic said some parts were still good. He worked on them during the Korean war and no offense to my dad but age is taking its toll on eye sight. Honestly im not that good of a mechanic and would rather send my t-84 to someone that could rebuild the t-84. Any suggestions. -----So im asking if (1) I can down shift doing around 30-40 mph, (2) And who can i get that is reputible to do the work. The pictures are great and im sure that the info is on the spot. But im really confused of the terminology. Im not a mechanic, But i can enter and clear a room with an assault team like no ones buisiness.

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Post by Bob N » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:03 am

Matt, you should not try to down shift into 1st,unless the vehicle is basically at a stop. However, you could shift down to 2nd from 3rd. However, you should keep in mind the speeds recommended. You can see for the Intermediate gear (2nd) on the "Caution" plate that 41mph in high range (transfer case) is the highest recommended speed. Of course it also sez 60 mph in high (3rd).

Looking at it another way based on the Willys MB/Ford GPW Speed Calculator if you were to get it into 2nd gear at 40.8 mph you engine RPMs are calculated to be around 3700. That's really pretty high as compared to say 41.4mph in 3rd with 2400 rpms (much easier speed on your engine).

So slow your speeds down and then shift. Slowing down to just 30.9 mph gets you into 2800 rpms which is better. Drop it down to 25.4 mph and you end up with wtih 2300 rpms (even better).

Basically you should neither over rev the engine for the speed you want to go at nor lug the engine (too few rpms). That's why we start off in 1st and work or way up to 3rd. While the jeep might be able to do it - it isn't wise to lead off in 3rd from a dead stop.

I hope that helps.
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Post by Wolfman » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:14 am

Dr. Duece
I believe the oil transfer problem you ask about relates to a t-90. Not sure about the t-84. The problem is with the gasket between the transfer case and transmission. Use of the wrong gasket allows transmission oil to transfer to the transfer case. A company called NOVAK has a web sight that goes into detail on rebuilding a t-90 and at the end of the article it addresses this problem. Check it out.
Bob N.
You can safely and easily down shift any jeep transmission to first gear all though it takes a little practice. Before there were synchornizers, transmissions were sliding gear design. No synchronizers. You literally slide two gers together, mashing there teeth together one the fly. Required a developed driver technique. Upshifting wasn't too bad then there was down shifting. Leave the clutch engagaed. Let off the gas allowing the vehicle and engine R.P.M. to slow. Once the engine R.P.M. was low. push the clutch in, shift to neutral, let the clutch out, rev the engine up, push the clutch in, let off the gas and at the same time gently push the gearshift into the the next lower gear. At some point the sliding gear speed will match the speed of the gear your shifting into and the transmission will easily slip into the gear you are shifting into. If you miss the speed match and your tranny starts growling at you like a junk yard dog. Go back to neutral, let the clutch out, rev the engine again once more and try again. worse comes to worse. Stop the vehicle and start over. Once you get it, it's a piece of cake! Oh yeh! The whole operation is known as "Double Clutching".
Last edited by Wolfman on Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Wolfman » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:44 am

Hi John Great post.
I noticed something on your picture of the assembled synchronizer assembly that recalled a problem I had on a t-84 I did a while back. No doubt one end of the internal clip goes into one of the three pawls as shown. The problem I had was the other end of the spring and your picture clearly shows it. The ear on the other end holds the clip away from the inner surface of the synchro hub and doesn't keep the third, pawl in place. The pawl just sort of floats around in the groove. The problem I had was when in third gear, one and only one of the 3 pawls would stick up out of the hub and prevent the shift collar from sliding back into neutral. It would lock into high gear. After removing and inspecting the tranny, the only problem I could find was the ear on the opposite end of the spring, not in the pawl, was not holding the third pawl in place. I cut the offending ear off. I was afraid if I straightened it, the ear might break off some time later because I rebent it and go through something I didn't want it to. That allowed the spring go out against the inside of the hub and hold the third pawl in place, as it should and solved my problem.
My thought was, there was only a need for one ear on one end of the clip to go into one pawl to hold the clip in place. The other ear wasn,t necessary.
Mike Wolford
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Re: transmission assembly part 1

Post by 41jeeps » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:42 am

Mike,

These springs are often bend and do not function properly anymore.
I use to bend it back a bit that it works as intended.
You have cut one ear off, which I think is a good idea as I do not see a reason why that ear is needed. :?

The function from the springs is important as they do the first step in synchronizing the gears.
You have brought a point of caution to the thread which should not be overlooked.

However, I think that the shifter plate in John's picture is not properly in place which means that the but on the shifter plate is not seated in the notch from the clutch hub.

Locked

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