more transmission pics

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
john barton
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more transmission pics

Post by john barton » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:43 pm

the following pictures are the different
arrangements used in transmissions to keep oil in and from
migrating...they follow the early, middle, late progression
that i posted in the first transmission pictures

this is one place where the manuals and parts books are
hard to track..the early manuals mention the oil migration problem
and how to fix..In a 1945 ord book it describes how transmissions
with the H get the special washer and seal..but all the pictures and drawings are from the early books and usually show just the early arrangement??
one SNL has two different drawings..one with one oil slinger..
another with two..? but lists the H arrangement and still lists the old parts
I have a 1949 ORD and a 1951 Ord..you would expect all transmissions to use the seal by then...but they still have early drawings
anyway..here are the pics..then some questions..
Image
Image
Image
in the seal arrangement..a special recessed spacer (washer in pic) fits over snap ring to provide surface for rubber seal
i would like to know if anyone has a later maintenace manual with pic..drawing of seal...which way was seal installed??
has open and closed side..it is almost same size as seal in timing chain cover but no spring..
with seal ...did they still use oil slinger on back side??
i have come across another spacer that is twice as wide as first spacer..
and does same thing as special spacer...it fits up against snap ring and fits where seal contacts?? Plus another arrangement with brass
washer that has teeth which fit down into mainshaft grooves..
please add any info if you have run across any more definitive descriptions
thanks...john

doby34

tranny question

Post by doby34 » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:38 pm

In the rebuild of my neighbors t84 we have the same questions and are still trying to resolve what to do. The new rear bearing was open on both sides and the book was unable to clarify which was the oil retaining washers was suppose to go. In talking with George at Army Jeep Parts he has a fix which includes two pieces to take care of all of this and tells me no retaining washer is needed on the transfer side of the bearing. I have not received the parts yet but when they arrive I will try them out in his tranny. I can let you know the results afterwards if you like but I suggest you call George and talk to him about the same question. If you want me to let you know afterwards whcih might be a wek to 1o days let me know via this post. old arkie

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Eeal and washer

Post by Buster » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:33 pm

John,
When rebuilding my trans a few months ago Ron sent me some photos of a NOS late T84 so that I could see what the "special washer"and snapring installation looked like.
When he returns ask him to post a photo of the rear of the case so we can see the seal.
I installed mine with the lip facing into the trans case.
Still used a fully sealed bearing since the seal probably helps fluid leakage at the case bore but nothing is there to seal the mainshaft splines no matter what we use. Just tried to close every opening I could.
GPW 56744

When the fellow at the door said "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms" I naturally thought it was a delivery...............

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Post by john barton » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:09 pm

I have found transmissions with all these arrangements.
I just put them back together with those parts or add a new seal..
i never did see how any of these stopped
oil moving along the splines...except for the brass
washer i mentioned which went down into splines..
when the gear in transfer case is on...it does
fill in the spaces..but it does not seal.
when i put a rebuilt transmission in service..
I just am very careful not to overfill either tranny or transfer
if transfer breather is clean and functioning..the oil doesn't expand that much...
I think more prople overfill to feel safer
if it does drip a little...let it go for a while...it will find it's own level
then just monitor level in tranny by taking top off once in a while
more transmissions leak out into bellhousing because of
dried out gaskets, no gaskets, or broken cork washers on input shaft..
I'll show some tricks there later..
the rear bearing which is shielded on both sides
does not stop oil ...it does not go down into splines..
i have seen and used the bearings with no shields..
i would definitely put an oil slinger on both sides!
I think proper levels...good gaskets, and clean breathers do more for stopping oil leaks than any of the arrangements in my pics.
I saw Ron's NOS transmission...kewl ..i believe the big discussion was if the spring washer for shift plate was on top or bottom!!!
please don't start that again!!
thanks john

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Post by Alasdair Brass » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:50 pm

Hi John,
I don't believe the seal was intended to stop oil tracking up the splines. The most important thing there is that the T/C input gear is securely tightened to the gearbox mainshaft. There is no doubt that a double rubber sealed bearing is of huge benefit in stopping oil migration from the T/C to the gearbox. I also make sure there is sealant between the bearing and housings and a smear on all the faces of the bearing, slinger, gear, washer and nut. I've never struck a T/C with oil transfer problems I couldn't stop with the above measures. There is possibly some oil gets through via the shifter shafts on a very worn casing but the quantities are not enough to be a bother.

Best regards
Al
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Post by DarrylD » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:25 am

Thanks for this thread John! I'm waiting for the UPS truck to deliver one of those "special washers" with the recess for the snap ring from George Baxter too and the timing of this discussion is perfect!

Darryl D.
Hey my website has moved to http://www.darrylsgarage.com

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Post by Guest » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:23 am

Keep them coming, John! Thanks a lot.

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Post by Bob N » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:56 am

Nice pictures and layout John.

Some might find this perspective helpful for the version with the tranny seal.

Image
Originally appeared on pages 263 of Vol. 5, Army Motors (Dec 1944).

Here is the complete article:
http://www.42fordgpw.com/pdfs/transnew.PDF
Bob N.
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Post by john barton » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:16 am

Here is Bob's pic from SNL..
Image
here's a case of manual not following another..
when second splash washer was added...bearing was suppossed to be turned around..here open side is pictured toward tranny
as originally designed.
But article in bob's post answers which way seal goes..
and that oil slinger does go back on, now in transfer case..
Al..i agree..as i stated..migration hasn't been that
much of a problem if clean and tight..?
john
Last edited by john barton on Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bob N
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Post by Bob N » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:33 am

What I have found as reported by someone else is not movement from TC to tranny but the other way around.
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Post by Alasdair Brass » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:49 pm

Hi Bob,
I can see by the way the seal is shown, in Johns enlarged photo, the seal has the lip facing to the TC so they were intending to stop oil transferring from the TC to the gearbox. That is the common way it happens but I have struck it moving the other way once or twice but I cannot recall what the problem was.

One thing for sure, if the steps are taken as I suggested earlier in this post, I reckon it will stop it.

Regards
Al
D. Alasdair Brass
New Zealand.
MVPA 5676
GPW 53126
MB 290463
Bantam T3 36501
Part of the G since early '98

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Post by john barton » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:59 pm

Al...that is a transmission with two oil slingers...
the problem is the maint book that describes that arrangement..
is also the one that says turn the bearing around..
here the bearing is shown with the open side to transmission..
which is the original orientation...when there was only one slinger??

I am still looking for a drawing of the seal in place..
bob's article from 44 army motors does explain
which way to go..

I forgot to post it before..
the seal number is
National 471504..
but you need the special washer
john

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Post by Alasdair Brass » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:01 pm

Hi John,
Yes, I see that now. Silly me! It looked like a seal lip to me and I jumped to a conclusion. I'll look to see what I can find but I don't believe I've ever seen much on this later seal arrangement.

Regards
Al
D. Alasdair Brass
New Zealand.
MVPA 5676
GPW 53126
MB 290463
Bantam T3 36501
Part of the G since early '98

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Post by john barton » Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:46 am

moving to top to answer questions about rear seal..
which i didn't address much in long posts
john

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transmissions

Post by DieFledermaus » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:50 pm

Does only George at AJP sell this new seal arrangment?
AUG 1944 MB, US NAVY
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