Water in No 3 Cylinder

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
dog
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Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:28 am

Woe is me. My trusty GPW has been steaming out of the exhaust, on start up, for a while now. After a few minutes it would clear.
I have bitten the bullet and pulled the head.
As you can see cylinder number 3 has a fair bit of coolant in it. On examination the wall of the cylinder looks to have some corrosion on it.
I’m assuming that there is a split or a porous area. It therefore follows that I’ll need new liners.
Am I correct in thinking that the cylinder wall must also be damaged? Am I looking at replacement block?
Is it possible that coolant was being sucked into the cylinder when the engine was cooling down after being switched off? This could be via the cylinder head gasket. Then if it wasn’t used for a while the coolant would erode the cylinder wall at whatever position the piston was in.
Either way I guess that it’s a rebore or new liners. How can you tell if there are liners?
I’m assuming that this is a Willys block as it came from a generator.
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parker007
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by parker007 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:34 am

I would clean everything real good and if no crack try new head gasket? nothing to loose. put a straightedge on the head for being warped before install.

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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Wolfman » Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:08 am

The cooling system has a 4 pound pressure radiator cap. When you first shut a hot engine down, there would be pressure on the cooling system and this is most likely what "pushed" the coolant into the cylinder.
Question is, where is the leak ??
Can't see in the cylinder with the head on and can't pressurize the system with the head off. At least not without a blocking plate like a machine shop might have for a pressure test or a lot of work plugging all the coolant holes in the block. I have done the later on a 3208 Caterpillar V-8 diesel engine. That turned out to be a pin hole in the #4 cylinder wall.
You might try drying the cylinder up and fill the block with water as much as you can. Wait and see if a leak shows up in the cylinder wall. No pressure with this.
There could be a crack in the head. Clean it up and look it over.
You could do what I did on the Cat. engine. I stuffed anything I could find into the coolant passages on the block, with the head off. Connected a paint gun regulator to a block drain hole. Filled the cooling system with water and applied pressure.
There was some leakage around the plugged holes but there was enough air supply and pressure on the cooling system that the pin hole appeared. Looked like a squirt gun shooting water into the cylinder from the cylinder wall. About halfway down.
Parker's idea is a good one. You might get lucky. A lot of coolant leaks into cylinders are head gasket.
Has the engine been sleeved and how can you tell ??
Get the head gasket off and clean the gasket surface around the top edge of the cylinder up. You can usually see the sleeve if there is one.
The stain/corrosion on the cylinder wall. It is radial, not vertical. Where a piston ring has set for a long time with coolant on it ??
Has this engine set for a while ??
The pistons & rings rarely stop in the same position. Maybe close but not the exact same place because there is always one piston on the compression stroke.
But the stain is a suspect place to watch.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

dog
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:12 am

Thanks Parker and Wolfman,

I'm going to fit a new gasket and see if that cures it. As you say it's a relatively cheap job to do. I'll put a straight edge across the head and block to see if there is a problem there. I'm a little bit concerned about the damage to the cylinder wall, but it has been running for a year or so like this. it runs well and has plenty of power. Yes, the engine sat for a good few months when the GPW wasn't used. I also lost my battery to that period of inactivity. It's the worst thing you can do to an old truck is let it stand.
I have cleaned a bit of the head to see if it has linings. I can't decide.
If I still have a problem with the new gasket fitted I'll then see about getting the block pressure tested.

Cheers
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Bruce W » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:22 am

Before you destroy the gasket while pulling it off, take a good close look at the narrow area between #3 and #4, maybe clean the gasket up a bit in that area. You may be able to see where coolant has been passing. Then when you pull the gasket, try not to destroy it in that area so you can examine the bottom side of it. It may be waiting to tell you what’s going on. If you rush into it, you wont see/hear what it wants to tell you.
BW
G Trp 2nd Sqdrn 3d Armored Cavalry Ft. Lewis 1970-71. 43GPW(Sarge?) 47CJ2A(Teddy) 47CJ2A(Rusty) 47CJ2A(Zak) 48CJ2A(Lefty) 48CJ2A(Uncle Linden) 53CJ3B(Bulldog) 88XJ(Pluto) NE CO

dog
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:50 am

The cylinder head gasket stayed on the head.
No 1 cylinder is at the bottom of the photograph.
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Bruce W
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Bruce W » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:59 am

On the block or on the head, what I said applies. The photo is not great, but that gasket looks pretty bad between 3 and 4. A common problem spot and could very well be your problem.
BW
G Trp 2nd Sqdrn 3d Armored Cavalry Ft. Lewis 1970-71. 43GPW(Sarge?) 47CJ2A(Teddy) 47CJ2A(Rusty) 47CJ2A(Zak) 48CJ2A(Lefty) 48CJ2A(Uncle Linden) 53CJ3B(Bulldog) 88XJ(Pluto) NE CO

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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Adam » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:19 am

I’m assuming that this is a Willys block as it came from a generator.

why are we assuming? what is the serial number and casting number? What are the head numbers also

Adam

dog
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am

Hi Adam,

This is the only number or marking I can find on the block.
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Adam » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:01 am

whats down below distributor, or right above oil pan to block joint, post a pic of the head too

Adam

dog
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:54 am

Hi Adam,

Here are the photos that you asked for.

The head is a latter Willys head with the re-enforcing ribs. But I had that before I bought the block. I don’t think the block had a head with it when I bought it, so I used this one when I rebuilt the engine.

There doesn’t appear to be any markings on the block other than the number but I took the photos anyway.
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Adam » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:22 pm

This engine is rebuilt?? I have never seen an engine without numbers on it, I do see a cast in tag down there, Wonder if they made some of these blocks post war in the occupied countries. Wire brush that whole bottom area off along with the tag,, gently there, or use brake fluid or something on it.

Anyway,, i would clean up the head and block deck, put a straight edge on them, a framing square is not a good straightedge, however whatever you are useing,, lay it up against a good steel level. top and bottom, and see if it is flat. look close for cracks in the cyl, and from cyl to valves or anything in the compression area. clean that cyl out too and post some pics of the group.

Adam

dog
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:43 pm

Hi Adam,

Yes, the engine was rebuilt, but about 20 years ago. I have driven it many thousands of mile sine then and it has done sterling service, with this being the first issue.
I think that you are probably correct in thinking the engine is a post war block made in Europe. I bought 3 blocks at the time. If I remember correctly they came from Holland.
As far as I can tell the cast in tag is blank, but I'll have another look.

I shall get it all cleaned up and checked out.

Cheers
Michael

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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by Adam » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:07 am

I wonder if that cylinder, or cylinders could be cleaned up with one of the cylinder hones that have the balls on them, say 600 or 800 grit, instead of just leaving that mess in there.

Dont use a coarse wheel to clean the cyl hed and deck either, something real fine, no gouges, be careful between the siameased cyl areas, it does not take much to damage them, even a sharp knife can do damage.

Are there not any real mb heads over there, get rid of the post war one, either way, make sure that piece is perfect. It looks like the block deck is of the earlier design, will relook at it, there is a post on here about 2 different head gaskets for the flat 4 engine.

Adam

dog
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Re: Water in No 3 Cylinder

Post by dog » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:22 am

Ok, I have had a bit of a clean up of her cylinder head. It looks ok to me. If you look at the edge of the combustion chamber of No3 cylinder the flat area is a bit cleaner than the other cylinders. I wonder if the water has been coming in, via the head gasket, from this side of the block.
I shall get the block cleaned up and see what that looks like.
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