6 volt or 12 volt

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
FordBlitz
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by FordBlitz » Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:09 pm

thanks people :D


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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by FordBlitz » Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:12 am

dinof wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:59 pm
I don't think you can change it to 12V. Those components, (as we all know), are made for 6V.
If you have to buy a new unit, you should consider that new one from Joe's Motor Pool because,
it can go either voltage. Ron has them.
my only problem is that I am in Australia and it seems that your postal service has declared war on aus and wont send anything here from the States :D

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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by mdainsd » Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:31 am

FordBlitz wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:41 pm
Thanks Gents you have given me food for thought. Is there a source for 12 volt generators that look the part? I dont suppose a original conversion kit is still available. I suspect I will tie myself in knots before I come to a landing. :?
Yes there are 12V regulators that look exactly like the 6V with the exception of a green data tag. Lots of WW2 Military vehicles used them, If you still have your vintage regulator and choose to go 12V, look on these forums and suppliers for just the 12V conversion circuit board. Shipping that should be no problem as it will fit in an envelope.

The original conversion kit (MWO-G503-7) is unfortunately one of those unicorn items along with pancake air cleaners, NOS slat grille Speedos and Relative Bearing Grease, so I wouldn't set my sights on finding one of those.I havent seen a complete one in years and that one sold for 5,000USD.

So, the easiest way from my perspective to achieve 12V and retain appearance, and be the least expensive is to: Get the 12V card for your regulator housing. Get the Genny reconfigured for 12V. Change the bulbs and coil. Add the resistor to the gas gauge. And finally, if you want to finish it off a 6V battery topper so your 12V looks to the prying masses to be 6V. :)
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by John Neuenburg » Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:53 pm

6 volt. Better resale money for the jeep because the people that want originality by definition will be prepared to spend to get it. Someone OK with mods, not so much. They are compromisers.

Good comment earlier about having gas up to the carb before starting after a long sit. Use the original type fuel pump with the primer lever and make sure there are no leaks at any fittings.

Bonding straps and star washers along with scraping paint under them are all important. Starter motor bracket to genny to frame is important, and the battery negative to a good ground.

Starter motors can be weak but people don't think much about that apparently. Worth investigating if one has a slow crank issue.

Paul Fitzgerald in California makes LED tail lamp bulbs out of military bulbs. Nice and bright on 6v.
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by FordBlitz » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:29 pm

Thanks for the great advice at least when I come to a landing it will be from a considered basis thanks to you lot.

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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by bowman » Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:29 am

Mike Wright wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:24 pm
Long story short. Proper grounding!!!
When I finished the frame off restoration of my 43 GPW, 6volt, it turned over verrry slowly! Started fine though. After a few months I did some research and properly ground all the charging and starting cables. Turns over like a 12 volt system on steroids 👍.
Factory stock. Never let me down in cold Kansas winters 😉
Any chance you could explain how you can achieve perfect grounding please Mike? Is it a matter of cleaning and tinning the contact point and then a good quality ground with a tight nut and washer? Any tips?

Thanks,

Dave

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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by Wolfman » Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:04 am

Human nature, Dave.
The average person looks under the hood on there ( Jeep ) and see a battery, cables, wiring, etc.& set out to make this part of the electrical system perfect. That's OK but as we know, that is only half of the equation.
You ask about cleaning wiring contact points or even tinning. That is good as well, but still the tip on the iceberg.
Unlike modern vehicles with running ground circuits, the frame & body is the ground circuit on a jeep.
On an old jeep, the battery sets up by the right front fender and the ground cable was either attached to the front of the battery box or the front cross member. That is a long way from the starter, that is bolted to the engine, which is mounted on rubber mounts. The need for bonding straps. Grounds the engine & transmission/transfercase to the frame.
But it is still a long way from the battery to the starter., with lots of needed ground connections to make the system work. Things like the cross member being bolted into the frame. That is a ground point. There are lots more. Not going into every little detail. Hope you see my point.
Anyplace two components bolt together is a potential ground connection and needs to be clean. No paint. Rust free.
Option ? Bypass all these frame and component ground points if you can't resolve the problem. A ground cable from the battery cable ground point to the engine block. Front starter support bracket bolt would be a nice place. There is the generator bond strap already attached there and this point is really close to the starter. And it is out of the way so it will not be that obvious.
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by FordBlitz » Sun May 22, 2022 6:55 pm

Ok its been a while since I posted on this issue. Floods and Covid has gotten in the way. I have come to a landing on 12 volt which brings me to the next issue. I have an original 6 volt generator which I would like to convert to a 12 volt alternator. Is this technically possible? :?:

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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by Wolfman » Mon May 23, 2022 5:52 am

You just want to install an alternator that looks like an alternator ?
There are alternators inside a generator housing available, but they are specially made this way. Normally, an alternator would not fit inside a generator housing.
As for installing a normal alternator in place of a generator??
Yes. It is possible.
It will test your modification skills to mount and some wiring changes necessary, but possible and has been done before.
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by dpcd67 » Mon May 23, 2022 6:39 am

If you just want to put an alternator in it is very easy; get a ONE wire alternator. It has a built in regulator and you connect literally one wire.
As for the mounting brackets, those are easy too, you can fabricate one, or buy them already made. The alternator only uses the front part of the original generator mount and you make or buy a bracket that holds the one bottom alternator hole. The top arm stays the same. Done it a few times...
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by Wolfman » Mon May 23, 2022 6:48 am

Don't forget the belt alignment. TJ.
The pulley on an alternator is a lot closer to the housing than on an army jeep generator.
Belt width comes into play also.
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by FordBlitz » Mon May 23, 2022 5:04 pm

Has anyone tried to convert the original generator housing to an alternator or as has been suggested it wont fit in the housing. I am trying to make it look original. Failing I could get the original rewound to 12 volt but it would still be a generator.

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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by Wolfman » Tue May 24, 2022 5:21 am

A company named "Power Master" makes an alternator that looks like a generator. Sells for around $447.00 U.S.
I have installed these on old farm tractors and they work very well and look great.
Don't know of anyone who makes a conversion kit to change an existing generator to an alternator.
If your question is, can you make an alternator out of a generator. Anything is possible if you want it bad enough. That would be quite an undertaking.
You would have to start with an empty generator housing and start from scratch. This includes the armature. The inner workings are completely different between a generator and an alternator.
With a generator, the armature has several windings, connected to individual segments ( contacts ) on the armature commutator.
The two field windings and pole shoes the field windings are on, inside the generator housing, forms a fixed magnetic field the armature windings move through as the armature turns. As each individual winding, one at a time, in the armature, reaches about the midway point of the magnetic field around the field pole shoes, voltage induced into that winding reaches a peak voltage and is transmitted to ground on the negative side and the armature terminal on the positive side by the brushes that are in contact with the appropriate commutator segments. Talking negative ground generator in this example.
This all happens, one armature winding at a time. The brushes move from being in contact with the commutator segments at the point of peak voltage as the armature turns then moves to the next set.
An alternator does something similar but in an opposite and different fashion. The armature and the field function is reversed. What was a rotating armature in a generator becomes a rotating field in an alternator and what was a fixed field in the generator becomes a fixed armature in the alternator. Ony now this is called a "Stator".
The armature brushes in the alternator apply a fixed D.C. voltage to the field windings to form a magnetic field that rotates with the armature ( now field ) windings as it turns. The magnetic field that is now moving through the fixed "stator" windings ( not armature ) inside the alternator housing creates an A.C. current, not D.C. like the generator, that is connected to a diode bank. Diodes are electric switches that switch on and off as the circuit polarity changes. A Delco alternator for example has 3 stator windings that connect on each end to 1 positive diode and 1 negative diode. 6 diodes total. As the polarity of the current in each winding reverses, the diodes switch on & off so only negative current goes to ground and only positive current goes to the " BAT " terminal.
Whew!! Did you keep up with all this ?
Anyway, is it possible to make an alternator out of a generator ?? If you want to bad enough and are real creative.
Be easier to contact Power Master. They obviously have already done this.
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by dpcd67 » Tue May 24, 2022 10:17 am

Wow that's a book! Especially for me since I don't really understand electricity. Don't use the water falling over the dam analogy; I can't understand that either.
I looked at those alternators that are stuffed into a tube and look like a generator. It was the $447 that is the reason I never got one.
I just paint the new alternator black and live with it, if I am not doing a 1000% restoration.
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Re: 6 volt or 12 volt

Post by warbirdphotog » Tue May 24, 2022 12:45 pm

FordBlitz wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 5:04 pm
Has anyone tried to convert the original generator housing to an alternator or as has been suggested it wont fit in the housing. I am trying to make it look original. Failing I could get the original rewound to 12 volt but it would still be a generator.
As Wolfman stated, the Powermaster Route looks pretty convincing (especially compared to the Delco Alternators). I did a full write up (which ended up being in a recent MVPA issue) which you can see online here: https://1944gpw.warbirdphotos.us/blog/a ... generator/ I've gone about 300+ miles with the Powermaster in place and it's working wonderfully.

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