Let's Fix This Mess

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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17thAirborne
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Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:59 am

I have spent over 10 hours trying to make sense of VEP and EP, perhaps even MP Ford body mounting hardware. I have read dozens of threads and looked at hundreds of pictures and sites trying to find a single definitive document to help sort out hardware. After all of this I have made the following document.
1. I took the list of body mounting hardware from TM 10-1348 March 1943
2. I correlated the Bolt No.s with their location on the frame.
3. I cannot find where Bolt No 2 goes.
4. Most discussions refer to 12 bolts, the TM has 14. Or perhaps I have the no.s 1-6 in the wrong location.

Please review this for sanity and if there are any changes to be made I'll correct it and post a final document for everyone to use. This stems from the many discussions regarding the use of the Body Bolt Springs, GPW82060.

I look forward to hearing from all on this topic.
ford body bolts 1.png
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)


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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:32 am

Mike Wright and I spoke on the phone for about an hour. We sorted through this list bolt by bolt while looking over my rolling frame and his restored GPW. Here is what we concluded:

1. There are 14 bolts listed in March 1943 TM-1348 and there are 12 holes in the body.
2. For bolt locations 1,3,4,5 and 6 we are nearly certain that they are correctly annotated in the diagram.
3. Bolt No. 2 is most likely one of the following options:
a. These are the bolts that attach the Gusset to the frame rail, which in the SNL, February 1945, are referred to as: Gusset, Front Toe board to frame, Left and Right Assembly, OR
b. These are used in lieu of the spring bolts No. 1 in later production, but the TM still lists the longer special bolts and springs.

If you read the TMs and the SNLs, there is no difinitive answer as to why there are 14 bolts listed for 12 holes, but given that the Gussets are part of the body, it may be more likely that the bolts No. 2 are for that purpose, Although the SNL lists those bolts as 3/4" long.

CONFUSED NOW? So am I :?
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

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17thAirborne
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:33 am

SO, here is option a. above annotated in an updated diagram.
ford body bolts 2.png
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

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17thAirborne
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:39 am

Here is Option b. annotated.
ford body bolts 3.png
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by dpcd67 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:17 pm

This is the fun of restoration of Ordnance items made 80 years ago, during wartime conditions. Changes were supposed to be controlled by ECPs, well documented on both the drawings, the Pubs, and the factory floor. However, we all know that does not always happen, humans being involved, and unlike now, no automated methods of keeping track of anything. So, it is no surprise, to me, that changes occurred that are not documented, and conversely, documents show conflicting configurations. Like extra bolts, etc.
You have done a good job. Build your jeep IAW one of your Plans.
It will be correct.
Drive on.
U. S. Army 28 years.
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17thAirborne
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:34 pm

Thanks for commenting. I agree with your sentiments on changes. Having spent a few years on higher echelon staff I have a dislike or even loathing for dangling ends. Everything needs to be tied up nicely and presented with a logical conclusion. Despite that personality trait, I do realize that one can spend 10 hours to achieve a 98% solution and another 100 hours to get to 99%, and perhaps another 1000 hours to achieve 99.9%.

I will give it another few days in the hope that another one of those picky staffers read something somwhere and can help push us to 99% easily.

In the end, whatever "we" conclude, this thread might save others the painful (but enjoyable) research that was done today.
Last edited by 17thAirborne on Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:46 pm

Okay, perhaps we have a winner here from the following website:

https://fordgpw.wordpress.com/2019/12/0 ... tub-bolts/

I have hawked his site many times and find his details to be exceptional with regards to the display of recently removed items in their original configuration. This challenge has convinced me to spend a bunch more time when I tear down the GPW that came back from Greece. I hope to do the forensic details in reverse, rather than document the restoration of it. Perhaps it will yield another few pieces of thebig GPW puzzle.

ANywhay it appears these bolts labled as No. 2 go here:Verbiage from his site copied

"Body pillars to floor:

These are the bolts just inside the tub as you step into the vehicle. They are located near the drain plug holes and bolt the body pillar to the tub. They do not bolt the tub to the frame. 3/8 x 16NC 1 5/8″ (2 pc), hex nut (2 pc), lock washer (2 pc) and plain washer (4 pc)."
sill-bolt-topside-e1575210751115.jpg
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by OldGPW » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:42 pm

17thAirborne wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:46 pm
Okay, perhaps we have a winner here from the following website:

https://fordgpw.wordpress.com/2019/12/0 ... tub-bolts/

I have hawked his site many times and find his details to be exceptional with regards to the display of recently removed items in their original configuration. This challenge has convinced me to spend a bunch more time when I tear down the GPW that came back from Greece. I hope to do the forensic details in reverse, rather than document the restoration of it. Perhaps it will yield another few pieces of thebig GPW puzzle.

ANywhay it appears these bolts labled as No. 2 go here:Verbiage from his site copied

"Body pillars to floor:

These are the bolts just inside the tub as you step into the vehicle. They are located near the drain plug holes and bolt the body pillar to the tub. They do not bolt the tub to the frame. 3/8 x 16NC 1 5/8″ (2 pc), hex nut (2 pc), lock washer (2 pc) and plain washer (4 pc)."

sill-bolt-topside-e1575210751115.jpg

Yeah I was about to say the reason there are 2 extra bolts in the manuals, is because Willys used them on the slatties for that pillar (one on each side).
Old GPW.

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17thAirborne
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:01 pm

Thanks for that confirmation. It helps! I think this is then the final version of this diagram.
ford body bolts 4.png
gpw body 5a.jpg
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

Trackpad
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by Trackpad » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:00 pm

What a wonderful restoration resource that diagram and these posts are !

Just want to say thanks to all the above. This was just what I needed as I was trying to work out what hardware I needed for my project.

Great work guys

Regards

Phill
1944 GPW (USMC Ambulance tribute)
1943 MB (Parts vehicle)

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17thAirborne
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:35 pm

Thanks Phil. It was a lot of work with Mike that brought this to light
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

Ian Fawbert
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by Ian Fawbert » Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:27 am

Hi Oz,

Great effort summing it up- very nice indeed. There are a few good posts on the G, but they are hidden over the years. One from Dave Sutts rings a bell- he did similar to you, but not as concise (I tried in his thread but it was never finished).

I would make the following observations, based on observations of many unrestored TYPE 1 SUPPRESSION GPW's.

Location 1.
There are 2 split lock washer's (1 per bolt) missing from your list. See: viewtopic.php?t=108891&start=15

Location 2.
- this information is missing the 3/8 split lock washer (1 per bolt)
- I believe there should be 2x flat washers, 1 on the inside of the tub, one underneath pulling against the hat channel. I will need to search for a photo to back this up.

Location 3 BLUE.
This information is missing the 3/8 split lock washer (1 per bolt)- you got it in the 3 orange section!

Location 3 ORANGE.
Cinch nut- where is this nut located please? I cant visualise it.

Location 4.
This information is missing the 3/8 split lock washer (1 per bolt)

Location 6.
There are 2 of the thick flat washers per bolt (a top and bottom), but you've only listed 1 per bolt. (should say 8 each, not 4).


What do you think?

Cheers,
Ian.
Australian Jeep Investigator
MB: 131175
GPW: 11730.
GPW: 225290.
Aust trailer: GMH 3- #211
http://www.vintageengines.net

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17thAirborne
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by 17thAirborne » Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:58 am

Ian,
Great post from you, thanks. What I have posted is exactly what is listed in the TM 10-1348 dated March 1943. Those pieces of hardware that you list are not on the list corresponding to the bolts in question as copied from the TM. Perhaps an oversight on the part of Ford.

So the question is: do we want to modify the list for what "should" be at that location, and if so is there a corresponding piece of information that indicates that the lock washers are supposed to be there (Tear down images from an unmolested GPW), or as we so often do in this hobby is use our common sense and conclude that bolts at those locations really ought to have a LW with them. Perhaps that becomes a note at the bottom stating:

NOTE: Lock washers are not listed in the TM for all bolts, but should be used along with all hex nuts to ensure they do not loosen during operation.

For Bolt No. 6 the TM lists 4 washers.

For the Bolt No. 3 Orange the hex nuts should be deleted and the clinch nuts left. Error on my part. Sorry.

We should decide as a community how we think this chart should read (as printed or as found int he field or as watever makes the most sense). Once the minds come to an agreement, I'll update the two charts as appropriate. I thank you for looking at the items with such attention to detail. My starting point was exactly what is posted in the Parts TM (Except for my errors)
Oz

Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)

Ian Fawbert
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by Ian Fawbert » Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:07 pm

Hi Oz.

Glad you thought them useful comments.

Clinch nuts location 3 orange.
- I’m still unsure on the clinch nuts. Where are they fitted? In the tub or chassis?

Suggested change proof.
- I will supply images of these locations I have suggested changes to from unrestored vehicles (still have pal nuts fitted, plus other point to support body not likely removed to support).


The mistakes in the TM are a guaranteed for:

location 2 with the spring.
All examples I have seen still fitted to the vehicle (with other points to help validate originality) of this spring show a split lock washer.

And
Location 6 with flat washers. There are several photos I shall find/supply showing that thick flat washer top and bottom on the 4 points (this 8 washers).

Presenting the info:
- Perhaps wording which shows what is observed eg for location 6, Spexial washer 8 ea observed (4ea listed in TM).

Further to above suggestion, I believe your statement at the bottom clarifying it is what the TM says is good.


Thanks mate. It’s good to read this and get the brain working!!!

Cheers, Ian.
Australian Jeep Investigator
MB: 131175
GPW: 11730.
GPW: 225290.
Aust trailer: GMH 3- #211
http://www.vintageengines.net

Vic ALLAN
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Re: Let's Fix This Mess

Post by Vic ALLAN » Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:12 pm

Hi Ian , I have not been able to access your vintageengines site ....is there a problem?
Cheers
Vic
1944 mb Eng MB301090 Old Girl
1942 mb 110674 Bruce
1942 mb 131196 WA
GPW 259102 Old Yella
GPW 50962 Henry


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