Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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htc
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Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:23 am

Hello,

I have a late MB with an internal expanding hand brake. This type of hand brakes is also found on post-war CJ's and M201. It is (as far as I know) never used on GPW's.

The MB I am restoring was rebuilt by the French in 1955? Chassis and tub were October 1944 but engine, transmission etc that were part of the deal were not installed (read separate) and February 1945. I am thus not sure that they were original to the rebuild MB.

I am almost done with the restoration (I started a tread many years ago about MB 379881).

I did wire the tub and I am driving around with the chassis/engine. It is only a matter of putting the tub on the chassis and connecting the cables (I thought).

One small detail: The hand brake cable routing. I did some research and information for the internal expanding brake on the G503 is old (i.e. no pictures anymore).
So I am trying to figure out the routing.
I have a rebuild MB (with WOF hand brake) and an M201. If I look at the routing of the cable then I see it goes through the transmission cross member.

Image

Image

BUT

Because my cross member does not have the holes and because the exhaust (early type which is not correct for late MB but the only exhaust I could find) does not allow me to install the cable in this way, I wonder whether this is the way the cable is routed in an late MB.

Can somebody with a late MB (1945) and an expanding hand brake of course have a look at the cable and how it crosses that cross member? Is it similar to the M201 routing as picture above?

(If it is I am in a lot of trouble making the holes and finding a new exhaust).

Next question is whether the cable is attached to the right side of the bell housing with a clip? But that issue is less problematic (unless you have a bell housing that does not allow the clip to be attached (with a 1/4"-20 X 1/2" bolt for those who wonder :-) )).

Thank you

Greetings
Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827


Wolfman
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by Wolfman » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:51 am

The problem you are having is because as you suspect, you have the internal E-brake and an external band type rear cross member.
Has to do with the position of the end of the brake actuating lever.
As in your picture, the internal brake lever is horizontal and the end of the lever is higher in relation to the cross member. The need for the hole in the cross member for the cable to go through.
The external band type E-brake, the lever is vertical and the cable attach end is lower. Don't need the hole. I am thinking ?? ( Scary ) With the external band type E-Brake, there is a bolt hole in the flange of the cross member, on the bottom side, for the brake cable clamp to fasten to. The cable goes under the cross member. But that won't help you. You need the hole in the cross member.
Maybe change the rear cross member. Or as you say. Make the needed hole.
A GPW has the threaded bolt hole on the side of the bellhousing for a cable housing clamp. I would assume ( my favorite word ) your jeep does too.
What is the interference with the exhaust problem ??
There was early MB/GPW that had a round muffler. Then later an oval muffler. The pipe on both followed the same route, along the front of the skid plate. There was also a deep mud exhaust. Not real familiar with that one.
I am thinking the CJ exhaust went back on the left side. Did not cross over to the right until it got to the rear ???
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

Bruce W
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by Bruce W » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:19 am

Correct Mike, the CJ exhaust pipe runs above the transmission crossmember and then straight back until it passes over the rear axle. Then it turns 90* and the muffler mounts crossways behind and above the rear axle. Similar to the deep mud system but not the same, as I understand.
The CJ parking brake cable passes over the crossmember and is held by a clip bolted there. But the T-90 is deeper than the T-84 and the crossmember is as well. To get the cable in the correct location, OP may need the hole in the crossmember.
BW
G Trp 2nd Sqdrn 3d Armored Cavalry Ft. Lewis 1970-71. 43GPW(Sarge?) 47CJ2A(Teddy) 47CJ2A(Rusty) 47CJ2A(Zak) 48CJ2A(Lefty) 48CJ2A(Uncle Linden) 53CJ3B(Bulldog) 88XJ(Pluto) NE CO

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:43 am

Hello Mike and Bruce,

Thanks a lot for the (although not positive for me) confirmation that I have the wrong cross member (or hand brake) installed.
In the mean time I did go to my storing room remembering that I had some spare cross members.

This is the picture of 4 of them:

Image

and a detail of the middle section first two:

Image

The last two do not have the holes in the middle (the last one has an F-sign btw).

I think the first one is the one that came with the jeep :-(. It is severely pitted and that is why I decided to take another one. Unfortunately at that time I did not know about this hand brake cable routing difference. :(

The exhaust that I installed is the one that goes from left to right above the skit plate and next to the transmission cross member. It has an oval muffler that stick out under the right side of the tub. I will do some research but I think late war jeeps had the exhaust and muffler going to the back (Is this called a deep mud exhaust?) and as such would not interfere with the cable for an expanding parking brake.

Maybe I will try to install an external contracting parking brake :?: :roll:

Greetings
Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:16 am

Hello

So I looked at the 'problem' again and I have another question:

As the tub is not yet on the chassis, maybe it is an option to replace the transmission cross member without removing the transmission etc.?
(As I have never done this on a working jeep I want to avoid it).
Can I not support the transmission and transfer case from the top (cable to the roof e.g.) and just replace the cross member?

I understand that I have to solve the exhaust system also but that is something I had to do anyway.
(I am surprised that none of the vendors seem to sell late war exhaust (deep mud?) systems).

So?

Greetings
Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

Wolfman
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by Wolfman » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:01 pm

Your plan is a good one.
Use a chain hoist or engine crane to lift the transmission and transfercase up a little. Much easier with the tub off !!
You could also use a jack under the transmission.
The front engine mounts should remain attached and will stabilize the engine & trans./T-case. Won't need to lift much so you should not have to remove the driveshafts.
If the fan and radiator are installed, don't raise the rear up enough that the fan gets into the radiator. Called owner induced grief. Just a little should do.
Remove the stay cable and spring.
Unbolt the cross member from the T-case and frame. It will come down and out.
Replace the cross member, that is in place now, with the correct crossmember with the needed hole.
Bolt everything back together.
Sounds like you have the late war exhaust. Not the deep mud exhaust.
Comes off the exhaust manifold with a flex section. Makes a right turn ( as you are sitting in the drivers seat ). Goes across in front of the skid plate and then turns back to an oval muffler and comes out on the passenger side of the tub. There is a clamp that holds the exhaust pipe to the skid plate where it crosses over in the front of the skid plate.
Also, the reason there is a drilled and threaded hole in the right side of the bellhousing.
A clamp on the E-brake cable housing is bolted to the bellhousing to hold the cable up, away from the exhaust pipe.
Last edited by Wolfman on Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:20 pm

Thank you Mike!

This is top advice. I will go for it one of these days and report back.
First I need to prepare the 'new' cross member :-)
Thank you also for the exhaust info. Will see how this works.

This is why I like the G so much!

Toppie

Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

Wolfman
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by Wolfman » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:24 pm

You are welcome.
Glad to help out !
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:55 am

Hello

I promised to report back.

I did what I wanted to do now that Mike confirmed that it was possible. Removed the skid plate, the exhaust and the cross member. Took a cross member adapted to accept a cable for the internal expanding hand brake and after painting installed the cable.

I think is is easier to do when the cross member is not yet installed.
On the pictures the detail of the cable as fixed on the cross member and the old and new cross member upside dow next to each other.

Image

Image


I will now install the cross member, exhaust and skid plate and never make that mistake again :-)

Greetings
Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

Thunderbird712
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by Thunderbird712 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:24 pm

TJ Zackman
1945 Willys MB, 430923, 3/28/45
Scored 98.375% at 2019 MVPA Convention York, PA

1953 M38A1, 69248, 12/53, 20999713
MVPA# 37298

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:24 pm

Hello TJ
That is nice. First one I see. Just need one like that in Europe ...
Thanks
Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:15 pm

Hello,

I did install the cross member, skid plate and exhaust. So I am back where I was a couple of days ago, only now the hand brake cable is installed.

I took some pictures of the final installation off the cable including the connection to the bell housing.

Nothing spectacular but maybe 4 or 5 hours of work that I could have saved if I only had know ...
(And then I was lucky that the tub was not yet installed :!: )

Image

Image

Image

Maybe this can help somebody else in the future.

Greetings

Hans

PS. Just one remark on the exhaust. I thought I would need to replace the exhaust but this is not the case. The cable does not interfere with the exhaust pipe going to the right next to the cross member and on top of the skid plate.
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

SteveUK1944GPW
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by SteveUK1944GPW » Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:20 am

Hi , thanks for posting this , I now realize I have the same issue with my 44 GPW which I am rebuilding , it has also been converted to the later type e-brake but I have the earlier cross member fitted without the slotted holes for the cable to pass though ,looks easy enough to remove and drill/file holes but I see they are not in line , would it be possible you could measure the location of the holes on each side please ,or would you be willing to part with one of your spare ones ?
Thanks Steve.

htc
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by htc » Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:13 pm

Hello Steve
Sorry for the late reaction.
I will be away from my stuff till end of the week. Only next monday I will able to follow up on your question.
Sorry
Maybe in the meantime somebody else can help you out.
Gr
Hans
Living in Belgium
MB 379881
GPW 253827

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Michael O.
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Re: Internal expanding type hand brake cable routing issues

Post by Michael O. » Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:43 pm

SteveUK1944GPW wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:20 am
Hi , thanks for posting this , I now realize I have the same issue with my 44 GPW which I am rebuilding , it has also been converted to the later type e-brake but I have the earlier cross member fitted without the slotted holes for the cable to pass though ,looks easy enough to remove and drill/file holes but I see they are not in line , would it be possible you could measure the location of the holes on each side please ,or would you be willing to part with one of your spare ones ?
Thanks Steve.
My advice would be to find the components to convert your set up back to the external parking brake system on your GPW, as it should be.
Michael O’Connell

Too many jeeps…and a Dodge.

MVPA 13861


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