New Trans, New Problem

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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minkforce1
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New Trans, New Problem

Post by minkforce1 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:32 pm

I just finished installing a freshly rebuilt trans and I've run in to a new problem. No matter which way i adjust my clutch release cable, the clutch plate will not disengage or slow down, and the trans is constantly spinning, unable to let me shift in to gear. The clutch release bearing has been adjusted from 100% constant contact (bad, so i've been told), to 1/2" free play on the pedal before making contact. In either case, there is good movement and engagement of the clutch plate fingers, but the plate will not spin down.

I've seen various disjointed forum posts listing similar but not quite problems and solutions.

Can't figure out adjustment: I'm using all previous parts aside from the T84 itself. It's possible i'm just sleep deprived and can't figure out where it needs to be, but assuming the clutch bearing should NOT be riding, i can't get enough travel out of it to disengage the clutch.

Bad clutch control tube: mine seems to be a cheaper version with two identical arms 180 out from each other. switching side to side made no difference. Lack of long vs short arm is a strong possibility, but this tube was in use previously and working.

The clutch control rod is original-ish and could have been tweaked slightly, has some degree of play, but otherwise seems fine. the clutch pedal shaft is a newer replacement and seems fine. again, the parts were all working together before the new trans was dropped in.

clutch fork not engaging top and bottom?: seems unlikely, though I did have to fish the fork in to position as we remove the trans, not the bell housing.it moves freely and evenly as far as i can see.

I've included a vide of the clutch throwout moving against the fingers without slow down or stopping the plate. also shows 100% constant engagement of the throwout bearing, so i'm fairly certain it doesnt travel rearward far enough, and likely not forward either.

any suggestions greatly appreciated, trying to save the last few weeks of good driving weather after being stuck all summer with other new additions to the family.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46cKW8NcTVA


Wolfman
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by Wolfman » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:56 am

Is this a new clutch disc and pilot bushing ??
Two things come to mind.
Did you slide the clutch friction disc onto the transmission input shaft splines to see if it slides freely on the splines ??
If the disc binds on the splines, this holds the disc up against the flywheel and it won't stop turning. What you are experiencing.
Also, if a new pilot bushing, it might be tight on the transmission shaft. Same results.
Have you tried putting the transmission in gear and bumping the starter with the clutch held down. See if the disc will release or slip. It may still drag. Be sure you have room out front in case the jeep moves. Maybe pull the coil wire.
Mike Wolford
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AOPA ( 50 yrs)
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Adam
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by Adam » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:36 am

Post a video of clutch operation with the engine off. How much do the clutch fingers move when the throw out bearing pushes them?

Adam.

minkforce1
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by minkforce1 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:48 pm

Wolfman: all my previous related parts were reused from a working, but poorly rebuilt trans. all I did was swap the trans and transfer case out. Because I didn't pull the bell housing off, we just slid the shaft straight in to the flywheel and clutch plate, so its entirely possible they were not as free on the spline as necessary. Pilot bushing was not touched. I tried starting the jeep in first gear, and also braking to free the clutch, didn't work but I've also seen suggestions to use the starter motor in third gear to break free.

Adam: i adjusted the clutch release cable till it was well in contact and then pressed the clutch pedal. video below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txxAWOpwcU0

I do remember having some issues similar to this the first time i set up my clutch adjustment, but never this bad.

Adam
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by Adam » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:57 pm

Looks like pressure plate is moving far enough of free up disc, so disc may be stuck to flywheel, how long has she sat since used last?
I took one off last week, need a chisel to break it off the flywheel. However that sat for a few years.
I dont want to suggest pushing the clutch in, while in 3rd gear and pull the jeep with your truck, however if engine will run,, start it in gear, and on an long open road, push the clutch in and lay on the accelerator and drop off a few good times.
On the other hand, maybe the pilot bearing fell out and is wedged between the clutch disc and flywheel bolt, you will hear a great racket if you get the disc unstuck

This is another good reason to always pull the clutch and pressure plate while the tranny is out. good luck, there is probably nothing in the service manual for this.

Adam
Last edited by Adam on Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by dinof » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:09 pm

Clutch plates are marked which way or side they
Go. Do you remember if this is in right?
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
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minkforce1
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by minkforce1 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:32 pm

Adam-been sitting since late august when we started the trans swap. I feel like it’s either clutch plate stuck, splines stuck, or a properly rebuilt trans wants to have the correct clutch shaft arms for extended travel.

Dinof: clutch plate is in correct way, didn’t remove when doing the trans swap, everything was running fine beforehand.

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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by Wolfman » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:43 am

So, now we know the clutch used to work but won't release now.
Clutch has not been disassembled.
Linkage function looks to be normal.
The jeep set for 6 to 7 weeks ( not a year and 6 or 7 weeks ) with the transmission out. Bellhousing open at the rear.
Where did it set ?? Inside and dry or outside, exposed to the elements.
The clutch shaft ( used ) that is inserted into the clutch disc is not the same shaft that came out.
Did the transmission seem to slide in OK ? No Binding ??
I am wondering about the suggestion that the clutch pilot bushing fell out ??
Since the disc has never been removed from the flywheel, is there enough room between the bushing and friction disc center hub for the bushing to fall out ???
I am leaning more toward the friction disc is stuck to the flywheel.
This happens to some old farm tractors that sit over the winter. 3 or 4 months
A coating of rust forms between the friction disc and flywheel friction surface. Not visible when you look through an inspection hole but works like glue. And these were with sealed up bellhousings. Not open like this was.
To get them loose, I did what has been suggested. Go out on an open stretch of road. Get the tractor started in gear ( higher the gear selection the better ). Go full throttle and then back off the throttle and hit the brake with the clutch pedal held down the whole time. May have to do this several times. Have gone as far as a quarter mile before the clutch disc broke loose.
Got to toss this in. Occasionally, if the disc was stuck really tight and usually with older, worn clutch disc, the friction surface on the disc would get ripped off the disc. This one looks to be fairly new.
Occasionally, could not get the clutch broke loose, but this was usually on a tractor that had set a really long time.
Mike Wolford
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VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

dinof
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by dinof » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:36 am

I don't think that the pilot bushing could be pushed back so far as to allow
the trans to bolt up to the housing. Mine can't I know this at least.

Try spraying a little WD-40 on the splines. Can't hurt, might help.
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike

bazza46
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by bazza46 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:45 pm

There's definitely enough movement of the fingers to release the clutch.You can see the so-called "anti rattle springs' pulling up the pressure plate. That leaves only one conclusion; the driven plate is stuck to the flywheel and/or pressure plate.
I agree with wolfman. Follow the directions and I think it will solve your problem.
P.S. I've had the same problem several times.
Last time, all the pushing and pulling didn't work, so I took off the bell housing inspection plate, had a helper hold the clutch pedal down, and poked a 1/2' steel rod through the hole, against one of the three corner brackets on the clutch (at an angle as close as possible to 90 degrees (i.e. in the direction of rotation), and whacked it once with a big hammer. That broke the plate loose.
It maybe left a tiny nick on the edge of the pressure plate frame, which harms nothing.
But make sure that the tranny is in top gear for this, as the flywheel and pressure plate must be free to turn a bit when hit, while the driven plate must be held stationary.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"..Bertrand Russell

minkforce1
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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by minkforce1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:00 pm

**SOLUTION**

We had a lot of close guesses with the clutch disk being frozen to the flywheel. After pulling the engine off and removing the clutch plate, the disk was in perfect condition and not stuck to the flywheel itself, leaving me with the other way it could be stuck: to the splines.

I'm assuming that when we installed the new trans, the clutch disk got stuck to the shaft at a slight angle, and when tightened down, was forced against the flywheel, unable to freely move because it was bound up against it.

it's possible I would have been able to fix that if i had just tapped around the clutch disk at its edges all the way around, but no guarantees. When I pulled the engine, I did better grease the shaft going in and made sure it was properly aligned and easily going back on.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, at least I was able to use the time with the engine off to replace a few parts that I didn't do during the first stages of my restoration.

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Re: New Trans, New Problem

Post by Klaas » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:11 am

Be careful with using grease on the splines. The rotation will sling any excess grease onto the clutch plate et al with the result that you will have a slipping clutch instead of a stuck one!
Klaas
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