Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
dinof
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by dinof » Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:04 am

Thanks Guys, always looking to learn as much as this old dog can :D
Dino Falabrino
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by Wolfman » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:30 am

A little more detail for you, Dino. And everyone else.
Local golf course. The grounds keeper was a good friend. Said the golf course maintenance dump cart was running bad, would I stop and look at it.
I did.
Seems the summer college boy help had topped off the gas powered dump cart with diesel. A 3 cyl. water cooled Japanese gas engine. No idea how much diesel they put in. Hopped in and took off across the course. They got as far as the 9th hole when it was rattling so bad it scared them and they shut it off.
My friend and I took another cart to get it. He got it started but it sounded horrible and smoke was pouring out of the exhaust & crankcase vent tube, but he got it back to the maintenance shed.
They brought the cart to my shop and I took it apart.
All the piston ring lands were broke off of all 3 pistons.
True story.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

dinof
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by dinof » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:49 am

Wolfman wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:30 am
A little more detail for you, Dino. And everyone else.
Local golf course. The grounds keeper was a good friend. Said the golf course maintenance dump cart was running bad, would I stop and look at it.
I did.
Seems the summer college boy help had topped off the gas powered dump cart with diesel. A 3 cyl. water cooled Japanese gas engine. No idea how much diesel they put in. Hopped in and took off across the course. They got as far as the 9th hole when it was rattling so bad it scared them and they shut it off.
My friend and I took another cart to get it. He got it started but it sounded horrible and smoke was pouring out of the exhaust & crankcase vent tube, but he got it back to the maintenance shed.
They brought the cart to my shop and I took it apart.
All the piston ring lands were broke off of all 3 pistons.
True story.
That's horrible. Just adds to the case that this should never be done........Unless you want to wreck a gas motor :(
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by KiwiMB » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:27 pm

Folks,
The reality here is that diesel has a higher calorific value than gasoline. This causes detonation which destroys piston crowns, rings and ring lands. Its not something I would ever consider.

Perhaps if I was desperate, but I would use kerosene not diesel.

Ian
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1953 M38A1 Nekaf
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by Ed Roberts » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:07 pm

Be very careful. Use only Gluten-Free diesel fuel if you're going to try this. And avoid financial advice from the guy that told you.

Best, Eddie
V/r Eddie
1942 GPW #5739 "Sentimental Reasons"
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by Wolfman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:33 am

Gluten-free. I like that one Eddie, but very true.
Like ethanol, which is made mostly from corn, ( Fire up the still, Jeb. I found a new market ! )
Gluten type diesel fuel, as you call it, is made mostly from soybean oil. This would really gum up a gas engine. Really doesn't work that well in a diesel.
More food for thought. It is Sunday morning.
To start with, as I said earlier, there is more heat energy in diesel than there is in gasoline and the octane rating of diesel is much lower
Next the engine.
Gas engines. Older, like L-134 jeeps, have a compression ratio of around 5.5 to 6 : 1. Modern street engines are running about 8.5 to 9 : 1 ratios. The gasoline octane rating needs to match the engine compression. You want to squeeze the fuel enough to make it burn rapidly but not explode.
Spark knock.
Compression pressure on a healthy gas engine. Old days 100 PSI. Now days 160 PSI. ( We are not racing here. )
Diesel engines. The first older diesels were 14 : 1, Later this was raised to 16 : 1 then 18 : 1 and some modern diesel engines are running as high as 21 : 1 compression ratios. Compression pressure could be over 400 PSI.
Any of these compression ratios would cause gas of any octane to detonate way before it was time.
On a diesel, the peek pressure is reached before the diesel fuel is injected into the cylinder. This is on indirect or direct injection diesel engines. The fuel is injected and ignites as soon as it enters the cylinder because of the pressure.
Like gas engines, some diesel engines use injection timing advance. Some industrial diesels just operate at full advance. Spend most of there life at full throttle.
Power is determined on a diesel by how much and how long the fuel is being injected into the cylinder. There is no carb. or throttle body on a diesel. 100% air flow through the intake system, to the cylinder, all the time.
Now, back to diesel mixed in the gas. What started this.
The gas engine compresses the air/fuel mixture to the optimum pressure then ignites it at a point it will burn evenly through the power stroke. Pressure stays low enough, with the correct octane fuel so the burning fuel does not detonate. Power is controlled by how much air and fuel mix is in the cylinder when ignition starts.
Now add diesel to the gas. Pre-mixed, not injected. Now the extra heat produced by the diesel causes increased expansion in the cylinder, increasing the cylinder pressure above the detonation point of the gas and it goes off. BANG !! or knock !
The components in a gas engine are made much lighter than a diesel and the parts, especially the pistons. They just can't take the increased pressure.
This is where grief starts !
While I am at it. Old wives tale. High octane gas in a low octane engine gives an engine more power. NOT!!
High octane gas burns slower than lower octane in an older low compression engine so putting high octane gas in a low octane engine actually produces less power.
Sorry Granny, but it sounded good !
Wolfman out.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by GPW1263 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:23 am

I used to be a DOT inspector. Over the course of many years, I have talked to a LOT of truck drivers. As a result, I have concluded that bouncing around all day in the cab of a large truck, alone, whilst sucking in diesel fumes and talking to a lot of people on the CB radio (who are doing the same thing) produces a certain mania, resulting in a thought processes that are either poorly formed at their point of inception or altogether incomplete. Some folks call it White Line Fever. The result makes for some very interesting conversations.

By way of example, I was taking one grizzled old driver to task for his log book, which indicated that he had driven from a certain point in California to San Antonio, Texas, all in the space of 8 hours. His explanation? "It's all in how you fold the map, Son." :lol:

Now, if one gave me his recipe for chili, I might try it... but when it comes to a concoction for motor fuel... Ahhhhh... No. These fellas are truck drivers....not chemists. If they WERE chemists, they wouldn't be driving trucks.

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by Wolfman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:58 am

I have 2 nephews that are over the road truckers and I too have heard the one about " How you fold the map ", as well as a few others. If I told it on line, they are both bigger than me and the boys and their buddies would come beat me up, 1263. :lol:
I bet being a DOT Inspector was an interesting job.
The boys don't have anything good to say about soy-diesel.
And when you or one of your buddies pulled them over, the fuel in the truck tank better not be red. 8)
I made a similar trip in 1971 with 3 other Army buddies. Had a long weekend and drove a Honda Civic, I think it was. Not very big, with all 4 of us inside from Ft. Hood, Texas, just north of Austin, to the City Of Commerce in downtown L.A., Ca. and back to visit with one of the guys family. Got back to base just in time for morning Roll Call.
Took more than 8 hours. Won't ever do that again !!!
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by jeepfinger » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:41 am

dpcd67 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:43 am
The pump nozzles are all the same size here. The handles for diesel are green, and of course, the pumps are marked.
Over here in the UK, Gas is Green, Diesel is Black.
Dave Boocock
GPW 41158 June 19 1942
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by YLG80 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:55 am

jeepfinger wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:41 am
dpcd67 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:43 am
The pump nozzles are all the same size here. The handles for diesel are green, and of course, the pumps are marked.
Over here in the UK, Gas is Green, Diesel is Black.
Same in Europe with 31mm Diesel nozzle and a 20mm green nozzle for gas.
That means that diesel vehicle drivers are less prone to fill up their tank with the incorrect fuel.
Like me :lol:
I bet it was done because of the lower diesel price. Gazoline car drivers were so delighted by the € counter running slowly. :lol:
Now that’s finished … :evil:
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by YLG80 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:56 am

jeepfinger wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:41 am
dpcd67 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:43 am
The pump nozzles are all the same size here. The handles for diesel are green, and of course, the pumps are marked.
Over here in the UK, Gas is Green, Diesel is Black.
Same in Europe with 31mm Diesel nozzle and a 20mm green nozzle for gas.
That means that diesel vehicle drivers are less prone to fill up their tank with the incorrect fuel.
Like me :lol:
I bet it was done because of the lower diesel price. Gazoline car drivers were so delighted by the € counter running much slowly. :lol:
Now that’s finished … :evil:
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by jeepfinger » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:27 am

YLG80 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:56 am
That means that diesel vehicle drivers are less prone to fill up their tank with the incorrect fuel.
Like me
Yves, a few years ago I did it the other way around, and filled my gas car with diesel :o Had to have it drained.
Dave Boocock
GPW 41158 June 19 1942
Bantam T3 9555 1/11/1943 USA 0258448
BSA WDM20 Sept 1940 C4343114

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by GPW1263 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:38 am

Wolfman is referring to the actual diesel fuel which is dyed red which indicates it is to be used exclusively in agricultural applications (tax exempt).

Quite frankly, we rarely checked it, if ever. NOBODY likes the tax man....not even the DOT inspectors.

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Re: Adding diesel to ethynol gas?

Post by YLG80 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:41 am

jeepfinger wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:27 am
YLG80 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:56 am
That means that diesel vehicle drivers are less prone to fill up their tank with the incorrect fuel.
Like me
Yves, a few years ago I did it the other way around, and filled my gas car with diesel :o Had to have it drained.
I just meant that the inventors of the two different nozzles have likely decided that the diesel car drivers did rarely fill their car tank with gazoline, because the smaller gazoline nozzle allows it to be inserted to fill up the diesel tank with the wrong fuel.
Not the other way around :wink: .
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
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