Joe's MP rear main seal
- YLG80
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Perhaps time to give an advice to Gary, the OP.
Already 1100+ hits on that topic dated from July 17th.
Already 1100+ hits on that topic dated from July 17th.
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794
serial 164794
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
I just spoke with Ron. He is aware of the current RMS problems and has been in discussions with Best Gaskets. This is why he now only offers a rope seal until further notice. He Will read this thread, but is going on vacation tonight. He will respond when he returns and has an update.
Oz
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- YLG80
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
The different seals:
The seal measured by Mike, with Victor & Willys part #.
The correct and workind Best Seals.
The rope seals, Ford GPW box.
Detail of the original rear seals
Another important note: do not soak the rope seals in oil prior to the assembly.
The oil dissolves the graphite from the inside of the rope.
Prefer Metal Shaper method who is using vaseline.
It’s perfectly shown in his video: https://youtu.be/e39dNzVYsP8
Yves
The seal measured by Mike, with Victor & Willys part #.
The correct and workind Best Seals.
The rope seals, Ford GPW box.
Detail of the original rear seals
Another important note: do not soak the rope seals in oil prior to the assembly.
The oil dissolves the graphite from the inside of the rope.
Prefer Metal Shaper method who is using vaseline.
It’s perfectly shown in his video: https://youtu.be/e39dNzVYsP8
Yves
Last edited by YLG80 on Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794
serial 164794
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
My take on it is: rope seals are more forgiving , they don't require a perfect journal surface or a precise journal dimension in order to seal effectively.
A engine rebuilder described to me how he does a rope seal, he uses permatex sealant under the seal where it fits in the groove and he applies grease on top where the seal runs on the journal, this grease application is done so the seal will not burn during the first start up process.
I followed his directions and have done a few engines with no problems at all . This is just my experience , I'm not a professional just a hobby person. The journal can be polished with emery cloth if the journal is not damaged severely.
A engine rebuilder described to me how he does a rope seal, he uses permatex sealant under the seal where it fits in the groove and he applies grease on top where the seal runs on the journal, this grease application is done so the seal will not burn during the first start up process.
I followed his directions and have done a few engines with no problems at all . This is just my experience , I'm not a professional just a hobby person. The journal can be polished with emery cloth if the journal is not damaged severely.
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
You struck a nerve, Yves.
Don't soak the rope seal in oil.
These seals running dry on start up is a problem. I see the point of not soaking the older graphite impregnated rope seals but the new, white material type rope seals are not graphite impregnated and need all the help they can get.
These seals run in oil and oil lubrication makes a difference between their life & death. Especially on first start.
John Gibbins ( Articifer ) posted a link to a shop in OZ showing the proper way to install a rope seal back some time ago. This was on an aluminum block Buick engine but same process. One of the things the guy did in the video was soak the rope seal in oil all night before installing.
As for a coating of grease ??? First off, what kind of grease ??
My experience with grease is, it is thicker than oil. Obviously. To become fluid and flow, it has to warm up. We are talking first start and rapid heat build up. Don't have time for the lubricant to warm up and flow. Use oil.
The oil in the soaked rope seal also acts as a heat transfer medium. Takes the heat away from the seal surface and helps keep it cool at the critical Moment. First Start.
Thanks for posting the picture of the seal I was referring to earlier. One of these days, guess I need to get a digital camera and learn how to post pictures. In the mean time, you are doing a great job. I appreciate it !
Don't soak the rope seal in oil.
These seals running dry on start up is a problem. I see the point of not soaking the older graphite impregnated rope seals but the new, white material type rope seals are not graphite impregnated and need all the help they can get.
These seals run in oil and oil lubrication makes a difference between their life & death. Especially on first start.
John Gibbins ( Articifer ) posted a link to a shop in OZ showing the proper way to install a rope seal back some time ago. This was on an aluminum block Buick engine but same process. One of the things the guy did in the video was soak the rope seal in oil all night before installing.
As for a coating of grease ??? First off, what kind of grease ??
My experience with grease is, it is thicker than oil. Obviously. To become fluid and flow, it has to warm up. We are talking first start and rapid heat build up. Don't have time for the lubricant to warm up and flow. Use oil.
The oil in the soaked rope seal also acts as a heat transfer medium. Takes the heat away from the seal surface and helps keep it cool at the critical Moment. First Start.
Thanks for posting the picture of the seal I was referring to earlier. One of these days, guess I need to get a digital camera and learn how to post pictures. In the mean time, you are doing a great job. I appreciate it !
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
- dpcd67
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Not a digital camera; it ain't the year 2000. Cell phones all have cameras in them. If you have an iPhone, and a MAC, it automatically puts the pictures on the computer the instant you take them.
Anyway, I, too, have installed many rope seals in L134s, and one 340 4 barrel.
None leaked.
I soaked them in oil for several hours. I put permatex on the ends and on the dowels. I used assembly lube on the journal. As stated, after all, they live in oil their entire lives.
However, even though rope seals are not hard to install if you seat them firmly and cut the ends off right, the rubber seals are easier and I would like everyone involved to get them right. Meaning the makers, and sellers. A rope seal would not be more forgiving if the rubber seals were made to, and the owners knew, the dimensions they were dealing with. But running blindly, yes, rope seals will mask a lack of knowledge of dimensions.
Once everyone (Users, Makers, and Sellers) has documented journal dimensions, there is no excuse for any more leaking Rear Main Seals. None.
Anyway, I, too, have installed many rope seals in L134s, and one 340 4 barrel.
None leaked.
I soaked them in oil for several hours. I put permatex on the ends and on the dowels. I used assembly lube on the journal. As stated, after all, they live in oil their entire lives.
However, even though rope seals are not hard to install if you seat them firmly and cut the ends off right, the rubber seals are easier and I would like everyone involved to get them right. Meaning the makers, and sellers. A rope seal would not be more forgiving if the rubber seals were made to, and the owners knew, the dimensions they were dealing with. But running blindly, yes, rope seals will mask a lack of knowledge of dimensions.
Once everyone (Users, Makers, and Sellers) has documented journal dimensions, there is no excuse for any more leaking Rear Main Seals. None.
U. S. Army 28 years.
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- Joe Friday
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Wow.
This almost feels like the 'old' G has returned.
I'm glad to see such a comprehensive analysis here.
I am a bit confused why my searches didn't pull up many of the old posts on this subject.
I posted the Engineering Print of the Rear Main Seal crank surface dimension and the seal drawings about 10 years ago on this site to demonstrate that the AERA bulletin was CYA, and showed the manufacturing non-conformances with the Victor seal. (I still have about a dozen of the them).
Great job!
I look forward to the updated product. This might be one case where procrastination worked in my favor since I've got 3 cranks waiting to be installed
This almost feels like the 'old' G has returned.
I'm glad to see such a comprehensive analysis here.
I am a bit confused why my searches didn't pull up many of the old posts on this subject.
I posted the Engineering Print of the Rear Main Seal crank surface dimension and the seal drawings about 10 years ago on this site to demonstrate that the AERA bulletin was CYA, and showed the manufacturing non-conformances with the Victor seal. (I still have about a dozen of the them).
Great job!
I look forward to the updated product. This might be one case where procrastination worked in my favor since I've got 3 cranks waiting to be installed
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- 17thAirborne
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
REQUEST: Please post your RMS Journal Diameter on this Thread so we can begin to understand what percentage of them have remained unground. I'll update the data.
OZ GPW: Diameter 2.3105
DPCD67 M38: 2.312
Wolfman GPW: 2.311
Yves GPW: 2.311
BW #1 VECJ: 2.3095
BW #2 GPW: 2.3085
BW #3 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #4 PWCJ: 2.3100
BW #5 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #6 PWCJ: 2.3100
BW #7 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #8 PWCJ: 2.3100
BW #9 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #10 PWCJ: 2.3100
Percentage not ground: 14/14 = 100%
Average Diameter: 2.3105 Rounded to nearest 0.0005" or 1/2 a thou'
Not totally scientific as I used 4 of BW's shafts at 2.3100 and 4 at 2.3105, but the data will still confirm what we know to be the correct RMS surface diameter. Once might suspect that those below 2.3100" have been "polished"
OZ GPW: Diameter 2.3105
DPCD67 M38: 2.312
Wolfman GPW: 2.311
Yves GPW: 2.311
BW #1 VECJ: 2.3095
BW #2 GPW: 2.3085
BW #3 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #4 PWCJ: 2.3100
BW #5 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #6 PWCJ: 2.3100
BW #7 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #8 PWCJ: 2.3100
BW #9 PWCJ: 2.3105
BW #10 PWCJ: 2.3100
Percentage not ground: 14/14 = 100%
Average Diameter: 2.3105 Rounded to nearest 0.0005" or 1/2 a thou'
Not totally scientific as I used 4 of BW's shafts at 2.3100 and 4 at 2.3105, but the data will still confirm what we know to be the correct RMS surface diameter. Once might suspect that those below 2.3100" have been "polished"
Last edited by 17thAirborne on Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Oz
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
- 17thAirborne
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Had to laught when doing my daily search for generic GPW parts this came up. Someone is reading our posts
Oz
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
- YLG80
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Yves GPW crankshaft RMS17thAirborne wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:25 amREQUEST: Please post your RMS Journal Diameter on this Thread so we can begin to understand what percentage of them have remained unground. I'll update the data.
OZ GPW: Diameter 2.3105
DPCD67 M38: 2.312
Wolfman GPW: 2.311
Percentage not ground: 3/3 = 100%
Average Diameter: 2.3110 Rounded to nearest 0.0005" or 1/2 a thou'
From my notes : original not grounded 2.3110
From my photos : slightly pitted, polished.
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794
serial 164794
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Yves: thank you sir. Data posted and changed.
Oz
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
- dpcd67
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Nice staff work. As if you guys served in the Division G4.
As for ground RMS journals; I know for a fact that Abrahams will NOT grind that surface unless they first weld it up and then grind it back to standard dimensions; for all cranks. They have told me that in the past; but I was not savvy enough to ask what the actual spec was for a 134 engine. I just had my M606 done last fall, but it is already assembled and running; of course I didn't measure it! They welded it and ground it back. That would have been a good data point.
I know; there are no good or bad data; just data.
As for ground RMS journals; I know for a fact that Abrahams will NOT grind that surface unless they first weld it up and then grind it back to standard dimensions; for all cranks. They have told me that in the past; but I was not savvy enough to ask what the actual spec was for a 134 engine. I just had my M606 done last fall, but it is already assembled and running; of course I didn't measure it! They welded it and ground it back. That would have been a good data point.
I know; there are no good or bad data; just data.
U. S. Army 28 years.
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
Great points all around.dpcd67 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:36 amNice staff work. As if you guys served in the Division G4.
As for ground RMS journals; I know for a fact that Abrahams will NOT grind that surface unless they first weld it up and then grind it back to standard dimensions; for all cranks. They have told me that in the past; but I was not savvy enough to ask what the actual spec was for a 134 engine. I just had my M606 done last fall, but it is already assembled and running; of course I didn't measure it! They welded it and ground it back. That would have been a good data point.
I know; there are no good or bad data; just data.
Hopefully if we can get around 30-50 data points that indicate MOST RMS journals are near the 2.310" size, it will have a bearing(really...no pun intended) on what Best/RFJP and the others will do regarding meanufacture and sale of RMS's.
Oz
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
Feb 43 GPW 98532 USA 20206257
Oct 70 Land Rover Series 2a 25334079G NZ16GF36
http://gpw.castraponere.com/ (My Restoration Page)
- Joe Friday
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Re: Joe's MP rear main seal
I'm pretty gullible, but I always thought both the early and late crankshaft all had the same RMS journal diameter.
It appears here the diameter tolerance on the crank is wider. Same upper limit though.
It appears here the diameter tolerance on the crank is wider. Same upper limit though.
Last edited by Joe Friday on Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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