Transmission new and something ain’t right...

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
donk_316
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Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by donk_316 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:24 pm

Gents,
My T84 is fully rebuilt (except for main and input shaft)

My cluster gear was shimmed and shims pinned (as per previous thread)

My synchro is new and all my gears, rails, bearings and seals are new from Ron.

Transmission when on the bench shifts with the proper click click and spins and works when put into neutral, 1st and reverse.

When I bolt the trans to the transfercase (with interlock pin in place!) and Rons gasket, the transmission locks up TIGHT. I can not do anything put turn the input shaft and even while in neutral, it seems that the brass syncos “lock onto” the main shaft gear and the input shaft face and won’t let go.

I have to loosen the bolts on the transmission to transfer case and “release the brass synchros from there spot and then everything works as normal again....

Is this normal for “new guts” and needs the power of the engine to break everything in?

I pulled the transfercase and transmission so I could do this on the bench.
1943 GPW 112092 DoD April 30 Louisville
1942 WLA type 7 (gone but not forgotten)
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by Adam » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:44 pm

No it needs to work correct on the bench. Is the rear bearing under preload when checking the tranny on the bench? build a jig and bolt it the the back of tranny to hold the bearing case in tight.
Input shaft and main shaft are native to this tranny? If not were they exactly the same as the ones taken out?

It sounds as if when the T case is tightened up the bearing pushes the main shaft forward. Is the bearing fully seated on mainshaft? Correct spacer and washer and shims if you shimmed it.

Adam

donk_316
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by donk_316 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:11 pm

Adam,
You might be on to something... I put the spacer after the snap ring and used 2 slingers as per suggestions... now I’m thinking that I’m causing binding when everything is bolted together...

Will the bearing survive being removed and put back on...?
1943 GPW 112092 DoD April 30 Louisville
1942 WLA type 7 (gone but not forgotten)
MVPA 35963

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by savmag » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:39 am

Hi Adam,

Assuming that you have checked for proper shimming of the front bearing retainer and then the clearance of the 2nd gear with the synchroniser and mainshaft shoulder, I would suggest you to start with the stock setup and then moving on to adding/removing "slingers" behind the mainshaft spacer.

This means you should start with snap ring - mainshaft spacer - slinger(shim) and bearing. Then hold the bearing tight against the transmission case and check clearance. If the clearance is not good, then add/remove slingers(shims) as necessary.

You should finalize the setup by checking whether any shim is needed between the rear bearing and T/C case and you are good to go.

Savvas

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by Wolfman » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:27 am

I agree with Donk & Savmag.
After re-reading the original post, one more thing hit me.
At the point you found the transmission locked up, after bolting up the T-case, did you have the gear and nut installed on the rear of the mainshaft and the nut tightened ???
Tightening the nut will draw the mainshaft to the rear and the transmission may free up. ???
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by artificer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:06 am

All previous suggestions are correct & about ensuring the correct final mainshaft adjustments.
1. The mainshaft depth must be correct.
2. To achieve this the mainshaft with bearing fitted needs to be held firmly in the transmission, as would happen when the transfer case is finally fitted.
3. Then the mainshaft gear, washer & nut need to be @ least 1/2 torqued.
4. Everything should work well. Then the gear etc. are removed.
5. If this happens or was done this way, the transmission & syncho baulking rings will not lockup when the transfer case + interlock are bolted up.
Let's know if more is needed to sort this issue you have.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by donk_316 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:05 pm

Gents,
An update.
I removed trans and then installed main gear which seems to set the rear bearing deeper and put the oil deflectors right up against the spacer.
Transmission still works and shifts perfectly.

So it seems that my rear bearing wasn’t on far enough and was binding up the transmission as the transfercase pushed in on the bearing.

Crisis averted and THANK YOU
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by artificer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:12 pm

Just for clarification;
Putting the gear on & tightening only sets the bearing in it's corrrct final location relative to the main shaft.

Holding the bearing in between the two cases establishes the shaft's depth & 2/3 baulking ring's = clearances.

This's is what has been previouly adjusted by corecly shimming the bearing's position on the mainshaft.

It's also the reason the bearing was held tightly in the transmission case during the preliminary adjustment process before finally installing the transfer case & interlock.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

donk_316
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by donk_316 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:47 pm

Artificer,
So, can you point me in the right direction on where this is outlined in the manuals or TM?
I think I understand what your saying...

Youre saying that the bearing is now in the right place relative to the mainshaft but it also has to have shims
such as:
Snap ring / spacer / slinger / slinger / shim / bearing

As the shims would keep the main shaft from walking backwards and taking up the free space up against the bearing face?
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MVPA 35963

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by artificer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:57 pm

the shims would keep the main shaft from walking backwards and taking up the free space up against the bearing face?
Not quite a good understanding. There should be no free space for the bearing to move between the two housings. See below.

The mainshaft & bearing must become one solid piec e with the bearing in the correct position. All those parts you mentioned including the circlip being correctly located makes this position correct. That 'solid' piece must not move in & out under changing loads.

Setting up the correct mainshaft depth quickly is often achieved using what is called a dummy bearing. This can be an old bearing with the centre relieved enough so as to slip on & off the shaft relatively easily. Honed with emery on a dowel & drill will do the trick.

This allows one to add, subtract those things mentioned altering the position of the bearing to get the mainshaft depth correct.

When getting/checking this depth the bearing must be clamped/held tightly in the transmission case. The main gear washer & nut are fitted & @ least 1/2 torqued, imo.

This locks the bearing so all of the components rear of the circlip become one with the mainshaft.

If the 2/3 baulking spaces are equal & not too sloppy the adjustment depth is correct. You now remove the dummy bearing by removing the nut, washer & gear down, noting the position of everything's place carefully.

Next fit the new bearing that will be tight on the shaft. Replace everything previously noted in the same position.
The bearing can be pressed into place or pulled there using the gear & torquing 1/2 again.

Now do the final check clamping the bearing to the transmission case & everything should be perfect.

Remove the nut washer & main gear.

Bolt up the transfer case (threads sealed) with the correct thickness sealed gasket & interlock. Check the bearing is 'locked' in postion between the two cases. Feel is fine or dial gauge trying to move maIn shaft in & out. Minimal ball bearing clearance.

Hope this explanation helps you & others understand this critical but reasonably simple mainshaft depth/location fitting/adjustment & how to get it right quickly without screwing up adjustment shims continually pressing the new bearing on & off.

Not trying to be smart, but the TM was not meant as a diy repairers full instruction manual but as a guide for one somewhat trained in mechanics. If you want that type thing Moses Ludel's Jeep Owner Bible early editions for CJ2 on, has a full restoration guide.

The TM's for the WW2 Jeep are not particularly good or comprehensive except perhaps the carburettor section.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:45 pm

I have never heard of anyone building a T84 with TWO slingers inside the case. You use ONE inside the T84.... and ONE inside the T/C. Are you using an original main shaft or a repop?
I suggest that you measure and post what you find from the following items in there:

Case: (measured from cluster gear bearing faces) ...5.672" (+0.000/-0.004")

Snap Ring......0.089"

Slinger...……...0.027" - 0.033"

Spacer...……….examples found = 0.150"...0.158"...0.178"...0.181"...0.205"

Gasket.....(btw T84 & T/C) originals were: Ford 0.014" and Willys 0.016" So those big fat black ones in some kits are junk as they are WAY too thick!

As has been covered previously, there is some "fitting" done to achieve tolerances correctly and THIS is where you can effect change....you can mill down the spacers as needed. I did find
Chuck Lutz

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Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by artificer » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:28 pm

There is no need to be measuring anything..

A 'spacer' is just that & they are used in combination/s to establish the mainshaft position.
Whether it is a slinger or 2 or shim/s is of no major consequence or big deal.
When the mainshaft depth & 2/3 baulking ring adjustments are right/correct plus the main gear washer & nut are properly torqued, all is good.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

donk_316
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by donk_316 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:07 pm

Gents,
After further inspection it seems that my “doubled up” slinger has magically worked perfectly...
The slinger is nice and snug up against the spacer and snap ring.
My main gear and intermediate gear are meshing perfectly.
My transmission spins and shifts normally.
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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:09 pm

...or just use four or five flat washers and what the hell, who's gonna know, right?

...or, just measure and use the appropriate spacers and shims with ONE slinger like over 650,000 T-84s were built with.

Up to you I guess....but I always thought REAL mechanics measured everything to find what was needed, not just slapped in anything to take up space (like TWO spacers!)

No competent mechanic would suggest you do that and none have EVER done that here on the gee for the 17 years plus I have been around....I guess the "new breed" feels differently.

But....if you have some factory documentation or Army Motors or other jeep maintenance/repair books that suggest that then please share them with us...

No offense meant, but TWO slingers is a true "Bubba" repair....
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Transmission new and something ain’t right...

Post by donk_316 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:17 pm

Chuck bro. It’s all good.
I guess there is one way to skin a cat. It just so happens that the two slingers (as told by me... “we always run 2 instead of 1 back there so we will send you 2”)

Now maybe I didn’t fully understand as I ordered 1 slinger as the guide shows only one back there. The exploded diagrams and explanations show snap ring, spacer, slinger and then bearing.
I had no idea about the main shaft shimming to the bearing as it isn’t mentioned in the online guides or the service manuals. (The online transmission rebuilt guide is horrible)

The issue with the transmission binding led me to finding out about using the main gear to “set” the bearing in place. It just so happens that with the snap ring, spacer and 2 slingers that everything seems good.

I uploaded some pics so you could see the set up from both sides. There is no play on that slinger.

I understand how it looks Mickey Mouse and half assed but after everything is sealed up and set in place, it looks great to me and works.

If you can see where something is ass backwards or could cause issues down the road, please let me know



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1943 GPW 112092 DoD April 30 Louisville
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