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Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:50 am
by artificer
Thanks for the encouragement & feedback. I know there is a need & we will work on it....

This 'project' is nothing new or revolutionary unless one is un-practiced & can only use the US Army’s ‘replace it’ regime propagated in 1940’s TM’s.
Some of us were 'properly' trained in & come from an un-wasteful military that actually diagnosed, repaired & fixed MB’s, GPW’s into the 1960's plus all other types of motorized equipment.

The flowchart strategy is exactly the same as manufacturers of all modern vehicles use with computer analysis or OBD's.
For example when doing a tune one needs to go through a check/test list & ensure each result is OK before going to the next step.

My experience with Volvo, BMW etc. is that even if you know what is wrong [like a common problem] you can't go straight there & fix that problem, without going through the full flow chart sequence checking everything on the way. This is very quick & painless with nothing missed or omitted.

I see something like this as essential in helping others on G503 get things right QUICKLY the first time. Get it done without spending hours reading pages of resumes & other irrelevancies, guessing & spending heaps of money unnecessarily. For example we have guys changing fuel pumps & carburettor's only to find @ the end of the day they have had an $3.50 ignition condenser problem or bad fuel, porous flex line or faulty fuel tank cap. Changing good parts with other good non returnable parts is plain stupid.

Continually we have someone, who should know better, advising folk to pull engine heads to have a peek, when absolutely nothing has been diagnosed....it’s in everyone's interest to avoid that type of inappropriate advice.

I spoke with Jon from JeepDraw yesterday after a couple of PM exchanges. As a result these 'flow chart modules' will now be posted on JeepDraw.
They will not be posted to the G as I did with the initial Electrical section on starter motors. That thread was already becoming contaminated & I asked for it to be removed.
The Starter Motor Mechanical section & testing procedure after one has the problem pin pointed & isolated to connections, starter switch &/or starter motor will be the follow on steps & this is in the pipeline. This will come as a complete module package & hopefully be completed before I leave for 3 months in the US, shortly.

Some might remember I was going to do an appendix module type thing on the T84 transmission some time ago [because John Barton's EXCELLENT guide could do with a little bit of a 2014 polish up]....this went into limbo.
This project needs to be resurrected because the current G stuff on transmissions is so confusing, plus it is impossible to wade through & glean pertinent important & relevant information.

Anyone with a GPW or MB who wants to work with me & is reasonably local, it might be possible for us to put together short instructional videos that tie in directly with the flowcharts & testing.
These short video’s could illustrate using simple inexpensive hand tools, gauges & instruments that all Jeep [& other] hobbyists should have in their toolkits. e.g. Homemade or purchased trouble light $7, automotive multimeter $6 to $35 & pressure/vacuum gauge $15.

One final point if anyone PM's me [preferred method of contact] additional information to add to the up coming JeepDraw Diagnosis Flow Charts, Testing & Repairing, if considered pertinent, it will be added. These person/s will always be cited, as the contributor.
Also if any appropriate flow chart is available that is relevant, I don't see the point of doing the work again.
If any are found, these charts will be posted on JeepDraw [cited & only with permission if ©].

John

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:53 pm
by 988280
John,
Great idea, makes all the sense in the world. I am in Michigan let me know if there is something I can do to help.
Chris

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:04 pm
by artificer
This is the first in the diagnostic series as I get time to do them. It has been sent to JeepDraw & will be on Jon's site directly for downloading in a very legible format. Please any suggestions or critiques by PM for action. Image

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:56 pm
by artificer
Marty has offered a number of suggestions that will be incorporated.
It looks like my trying to be concise & sticking to one page is a little too simplistic so looks like 2 pages & offering a more practical hierarchy.
When we look @ the TM with only 1/2 a page of REPLACE IT type recommendations, it is not difficult to see the need to improve.
So if we need more detail then that is what we [collectively] will do.

Image

Any other contributions are welcome, just PM me ASAP, please.
We don't really want to be continually updating this, so time is of the essence.

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:25 am
by MB1943EB
John,
excellent ideas. I don't see any other ways but to walk the logical and analytical path in order to avoid all this expensive and senseless "kickin' out whatever parts and then see what happens...".
Although I'm a MB greenhorn in technical terms, I hope to contribute with critical counterchecks & cross-readings. I cross fingers that you get a lot of deliberate contributions from G members. :D

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:07 pm
by andys
John,

This is a great idea, and very generous of you to do this without compensation, because I can picture the amount of time this will take. I will try to pay attention to these posts and help if I can.

I use the TM frequently and it provides a good framework, but I have always been disappointed in the throwaway mentality it exhibits. One of the things I love about old jeeps is that just about everything can be serviced by a competent home mechanic, and you can diagnose and repair problems if you can just figure it out :)

Thanks! Andy

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:59 am
by artificer
Spent so much time on transmission stuff this week, I haven't touched this & will be away all next week travelling.
Frankly I thought there might be more input. Quite surprising really, just Marty.

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:56 pm
by lt.luke
I'm going to print the 1st picture and use it on GPW12078. She turns over, slowly. Using the hand crank yeilds necessity for a lot of effort as well, so I suspect it is simply a very new, very tight engine. BUT, I want to try jumping from NEG battery straight to starter ground. In this instance, is the negative battery cable still attached to the battery?

Re: Flowcharts, diagnosis, fault finding & troubleshooting

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:05 pm
by artificer
The new one I am about 1/2 way through will include a couple of things Marty suggested.
That includes if it is hard with the crank handle or by hand it usually will be no different for the starter especially if the motor is new & the problem may be associated with the rear main engine oil seal.

Re: NEW UPDATED INFO 9.11.2014 Flowcharts, diagnosis....etc.

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:30 pm
by artificer
Well hopefully this is helpful & close to being on the money, this time....Marty was the only person who actually PM'd me & he offered a suggestion that more detail would be helpful. Thanks Marty for your interest. This & other presentations will also be available on Jon Roger's: JeepDraw site http://www.jeepdraw.com

One can see the comparative TM offerings by the US Army on the 3rd picture.
This indicates that because of their more than adequate supply system [there is still WW2 NOS stuff in abundance for all types of vehicles retired 40, 50 & 60 years ago in the US & some parts of Europe] diagnosis was near non existant & it is hard to comprehend the waste that took & has taken place.

This fact & that the TM publications encouraged guessing rather than as was then practice & still is in smaller Army's....diagnose properly & repair things so they don't break or fail again. It is not hard to imagine why their Mechanics didn't learn much until they left the service & worked in private enterprise.

As time becomes available & I feel the urge, plus see a need, I will do similar presentations on ignition systems, steering etc.
Transmissions is still in the pipeline list, but I think I will let others [like the eveready bunny] wear themselves out first.
Then all the misapprehensions & BS can be addressed once, rather than multiple times in threads too lengthy to mean very much @ all.

Image

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Image

Re: NEW UPDATED INFO 9.11.2014 Flowcharts, diagnosis....etc.

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:20 am
by Chuck Lutz
I think it would be an excellent place to start this by your posting a tutorial on both the VACUUM gauge and the MULT-METER. The vacuum gauge needs explaining on how to tune or diagnose the motor by tapping into the intake manifold or the carb. Any and all references that may be mentioned later on in subsequent posts could then be simply referenced to the tutorial and not require a new guy to ask "But what do I look for? How much vacuum in enough? What does low or high mean? Etc..."

The same thing for the mult-meter in testing the coil, the condenser, etc. Once you have posted a tutorial that contains the "how-to" for any further reference you will make in later diagnostic charts that covers how to use it, which scale to use, etc. then each post will enable any new guy to read up on how to use their new toys.

A good "how-to" on checking compression wouldn't be a bad idea either....

Don't assume that a majority of g503ers are mechanics or are profecient with what instruments they have access to.....

Re: NEW UPDATED INFO 9.11.2014 Flowcharts, diagnosis....etc.

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:30 am
by artificer
I'm in the US now for 2 months & will look @ this when I get back to base.

BTW the 3 links some may not be able decipher & click on are:
Battery.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi8sUE9XCgA
This same guy Kent Bergsma has many really good instructional video's that relate to ALL types of vehicle's systems not just MB's.

Voltage drop test.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRPLgH6uZg

Rens link is.... http://www.rensjeep.com/fixstarter/starterrepair.html

Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:00 pm
by artificer
Gindi, a day ago offered by PM that there may be a problem (like broken wrist) trying to start an overadvanced JEEP engine using a hand crank.
Having experienced many hand cranked vehicles including my 1923 Oakland, I AGREE 100%, thank him for pointing out my error/ommission & will update the flowchart on JeepDraw when back in OZ.

Update will be basically....

To eliminate the problem of ignition timing in starter diagnosis....
Try to start using starter with ignition OFF & if OK.....then....try to start using starter with ignition ON & if NOT OK....ignition timing advance needs checking/correction.

Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:32 pm
by Niblet
outstanding thread! Thanks for the time you invested!

Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:47 pm
by Michael O.
Simply brilliant!