Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Post by santan17 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:19 am

Thank you for doing this, it will be invaluable to jeep noobs like myself when things go wrong.


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Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Post by artificer » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:28 pm

Thanks for the feedback:
I am currently working on Ignition systems fault finding then the complete Jeep fuel system including fuel pumps. But one should also check on JeepDraw for others in the series.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Post by artificer » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:34 am

OK, thanks we mean to help. & Jon ROGERS needs much more in the way of recognition than he gets for helping & maintaining our collective Jeep hobby.
This starter & a number of other How to Do are on http://www.JeepDraw.com These are downloadable in PDF format to print or save to your computer.
Just open JeepDraw & scroll down until you get to them.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: ANOTHER NEW UPDATED INFO 9.25.2014 Flowcharts.....

Post by USAFpj » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:45 am

John and Jon, I sure do appreciate these flowcharts. It seems that I'll have a problem that has come up, and I think is new. I'll then go into the search box and see that I had asked for help on the same exact problem a couple of years ago, but now on a different vehicle! Your flowchart is a no-brainer, and much appreciated :wink: .

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Re: Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by artificer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:45 am

Photobucket screwed up many really good tutorials by Marty & others. This is why JON ROGER'S Jeepdraw is invaluable in keeping stuff from getting lost. Here is a link to the starter problem's flowcharts:
http://jeepdraw.com/images/Starter-Diag ... 8.3.15.pdf
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by SPIESS » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:01 am

These photos do not show up!

Scott

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by artificer » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:35 am

Not sure what you are doing but when I just clicked on the jeepdraw link in the post above your's it worked fine. Please advise.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by jobsonkraft » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:16 am

Amazing !

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by moneypit » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:56 pm

John , I watched the battery video . the guy Kent brought up some good points BUT i have a question or two . In the video , when he checks with the hydrometer he only checks ONE cell , granted his voltage at rest was right but if you're checking for a bad or low cell wouldn't you check ALL of them ? I would . Secondly , while I LOVE new toys and that meter does look cool , had he used the voltmeter while cranking the engine he would've SEEN that 13.1 volts take a quick dump down below ten volts . Not being a show off or trying to discredit the guy , merely bringing up points
1944 willys mb 1951 m-38 1954 cj-3b "if it's broke i can make it more broke"

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by Bob Bell » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:08 pm

I read in Artifier's excellent Starter flow chart that a a bad new rear oil seal can cause starting problems.
I have a rebuilt motor with about three miles on it. I put in a rope seal in the rear main, and now I see it is leaking. I am having great trouble in turning the motor over now. Brand new 6v battery, rebuilt starter with all new bushings (three of them), new bendix, new starter cables, new wiring .... in fact just about everything is new. This is on a 1951 3A, but as it has an MB motor, and this post is directly related to the starter flow chart, I am posting here.
On occasion (usually first thing in the morning) the engine will turn fairly rapidly, but if it doesn't catch immediately, on subsequent attempts, it just makes the 'dead battery' sound. I have new earth / bonding cables from the starter to the frame, one from the front starter bracket, and the other, from the lower starter bolt to the bell housing, to the frame. I have run continuity tests with my DVMM and both cables show no resistance. Likewise with the battery negative cable.
I check for heat after a few starter attempts, and the starter does get quite warm, ditto the solenoid end of the cable running from the solenoid to the starter. The solenoid is also brand new. A continuity test from the solenoid to ground shows no resistance.
I have had the starter out several times to check for problems, and it runs beautifully on the bench. I also took it to a starter / alternator shop just to be sure, and there the old veteran mechanic whose shop it is told me the starter is fine.
So, can it really be the oil seal? I can turn the motor by hand, using a pry bar against the flywheel. (I have a LinkBelt capstan winch mounted, so cannot turn the engine via the front of the crankshaft).
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by YLG80 » Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:14 am

Hi Bob,
Hera re a few comments from an attentive reader:

-Can a bad new rear oil seal can cause starting problems. The answer is NO!

Eliminate:
1. The ignition system ~ turn engine over with ignition OFF turns good then with ignition ON turns bad ~ indicates ignition too far advanced
2. The battery condition ~ bad cell? & terminals [corroded internally]
3. The starter switch's internal contact/s [he says solenoid?]
4. No matter how many grounds /earths on the Jeep I always used to run an earth across one or both engine mounts.

There are contradictions in your explanation like
"trouble turning the motor over" , "On occasion (usually first thing in the morning) the engine will turn fairly rapidly, but if it doesn't catch immediately, on subsequent attempts, it just makes the 'dead battery' sound", "I can turn the motor by hand, using a pry bar against the flywheel."

Could you give more information?

Having assembled this engine by yourself? This may actually be a mechanical issue, if the above have been eliminated.

The main bearings & particularly the centre one can be reversed so the oil gallery feed is blocked off.
Both bearing 1/2's will fit the engine block or the bearing cap BUT only one 1/2 has the oil drilling.
Stupid design. Also similar issues if the bearing dowel locating pins are not fitted!

The resulting lack of oil can cause the main to eventually tighten/seize plus stops oil supply to the associated connecting rods.

This type faulty assembly is evidenced by a low/dull & not very discernable rumble immediately on startup, then ongoing & eventually worse, if run too long.

Hope it will help for the troubleshooting.
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by Bob Bell » Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:06 am

Hi Yves,
Thanks for jumping in. Like you, I did not think that a bad new rear oil seal might cause starting problems, UNTIL I carefully read through Artificer's Starter Problem Flow Chart from which I quote here:
Engine is very hard to turn. Check mechanical reasons engine won't turn...crank/piston/s tight
seized, new bad rear main oil seal. Have someone depress clutch. Anything alter?
New engines may be a little tight BUT this should not negatively affect a good starting system.
Yes I did assemble the engine myself. And I am now going to introduce some startling new evidence regarding the rebuild, and the failed oil seal. Due to an act of STAGGERING INCOMPETENCE, WOEFUL INEPTITUDE and almost CRIMINAL LACK of expertise, I never soaked the rear main seal - which is (was) rope - in oil prior to installation. My extremely vivid imagination leads me to expect to see a horribly shredded mess around the rear cap and seal. It is this imagination, COUPLED with the above quote from Artificer, that has indeed led me to question whether in fact, this seal is indeed the cause of the problem, which, as I stated in what you quote:
There are contradictions in your explanation like
"trouble turning the motor over" , "On occasion (usually first thing in the morning) the engine will turn fairly rapidly, but if it doesn't catch immediately, on subsequent attempts, it just makes the 'dead battery' sound", "I can turn the motor by hand, using a pry bar against the flywheel."

Could you give more information?
I'm sorry it is not very clear. By "trouble turning the motor over" I mean just that. I turn the key, and the engine turns very very slowly. So slowly I take pity on the starter after one revolution. And again,
"On occasion (usually first thing in the morning) the engine will turn fairly rapidly, but if it doesn't catch immediately, on subsequent attempts, it just makes the 'dead battery' sound"
I do mean just that. The first attempt - up to a couple of days ago, that is just what would happen. The motor turned satisfactorily for a seven or eight revolutions, and then stopped doing so. It is my belief that the last few attempts have considerably worsened the condition of the rear seal. I am not going to try to start the motor again until I have taken it out and replaced the rear seal correctly. And lastly, I take your point regarding the ignition timing. I am sure it is off. When I remove the engine to replace the seal, I will also do the following. Remove the flywheel, which was put on 180 degrees off by the same IDIOT that screwed up the rear seal, and while I am about that, I will replace the ring gear which probably should have been replaced beforehand. It does have some wear, although I had not considered it to be very bad. For thirty bucks, it will be worth it to me to replace it. And while I am doing all this, I will re-check the valve and ignition timing. As you will realize, I cannot use a timing light if the engine doesn't run. Also, with the flywheel in the correct position, I can then return the distributor to its correct position, with number one at around five o'clock. This will also have the advantage of the distributor oiler being back in the correct position. I know and understand that the scientific method of putting one's thumb over spark plug hole number one tells one when that piston is at top dead center, but in view of the fact that I can't crank the motor by hand (remember the winch) and can't crank the motor by electricity, AND the fact that the motor DOES have to come out anyway, it will be simpler and ultimately easier to get all the things resolved at the same time.
I just realized I failed to address this:
"I can turn the motor by hand, using a pry bar against the flywheel."
I can turn the motor by inserting a pry bar into the space left by the now removed starter, and inserting a pry bar, and levering against the flywheel teeth.
Eliminate:
1. The ignition system ~ turn engine over with ignition OFF turns good then with ignition ON turns bad ~ indicates ignition too far advanced
2. The battery condition ~ bad cell? & terminals [corroded internally]
3. The starter switch's internal contact/s [he says solenoid?]
4. No matter how many grounds /earths on the Jeep I always used to run an earth across one or both engine mounts.
1. I've had the distributor in every position - advanced and retarded, degree by degree. A few days ago it was in the sweet spot, and I drove the jeep for a couple of miles. Since the failure of the oil seal - which obviously began at the beginning of that little journey - the jeep became harder to start, and even when it did run, it was obviously a little out of tune.
2. The battery is brand new.
3. The solenoid is brand new - we had this conversation back in June viewtopic.php?f=19&t=330208
4. This I have done - grounds across one engine mount and one from rear of engine to frame. Excellent continuity on both.

So many thanks for all your very good suggestions. I started this post because a 'bad new rear oil seal' is mentioned in the flow chart as a possible cause of
poor starting, unrelated to the starter. And I do know that I have a very bad, very new rear oil seal.
Last of all, to all of those amateur hobbyist mechanics out there - soak your rope seals!
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by YLG80 » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:05 am

Hi Bob,
Yes sometimes we learn by experience.
Here is an excellent video showing how to assemble the rear mainseal. That is another engine but the process is the same.

https://youtu.be/kSQWlnvAIbI

Good luck
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by Bob Bell » Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:49 pm

Thanks Yves.

Great video, and very informative.

Interestingly, the next video suggested by YouTube was one by Metalshaper - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e39dNzVYsP8 - a guy who has made many very good videos about jeeps. Rebuilding axles, steering boxes, transmissions etc. Seeing this video again reminded me that it was this very same video that I followed when installing the rope seal when I was putting the engine together, and possibly goes a small way to exonerating my missteps, in that he doesn't soak the seal in oil, but merely brushes vaseline over it before assembly. I followed his instructions all the way. He also does not knead the seal as thoroughly as does the Australian gentleman in the video you referred me to.

I can understand the advantage of really soaking the seal before installation, and I WILL do so the next time. And there will be a next time, sometime next week! However, I have to wonder how many folks do install the seal without pre-soaking it?

I haven't yet pulled the engine and looked at the seal, but I suspect I will find one that will be somewhat torn up / over heated by the lack of pre-lubrication. Or possibly not???

Bob
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

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Re: Starter Flowcharts & photobucket....reason for Jeepdraw links

Post by David Hughes » Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:56 pm

Hi Bob. I know you stated that the battery was new, but I think you should have it tested or substitute a 6volt battery from a functioning motor. With this test we can start to eliminate each possible faulty part.
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