rear main seal info

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Chevy427z
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:06 pm

Thank you for your response.

Trying this first, it's the link to the page. Doesn't look like my exact part will come up so the part number to search on is 800093 I didn't think that there were a lot of choices as far as neoprene seals go.

http://www.kaiserwillys.com/product/720 ... ccessories

Mark

editted: the link does take you right to the part.
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by artificer » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:11 pm

Anything like this style seal & with the 800093 etc. numbers, I am not using period....it is not a lip seal but a wide wiper seal.
These seals have been the ones everyone has had problems with being to tight causing heat & melting the rear main bearing to the crankshaft.
To the best of my knowledge Ron Fitzpatrick no longer stocks or sells them....there are reasons for actions like this.

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The top one in this following lot is the same as those above & problematic. I see Kaiser tech is suggesting cutting the ends to fit properly. What a crock & DO NOT DO THAT!

A seal is meant to be a perfect circle when fitted & cutting the ends destroys that possibility.

Want a leak?
Trimming the ends of that style main seal is the best way to achieve that objective.

The centre one & the rope type are & have always been fine to use.
The rope is more forgiving on a lightly pitted journal than the lip seal for obvious reasons.

Both fit in the original groove meant for that purpose.

The middle seal is what folk are calling the Payen style.

It is a definite lip seal & I have had success with every one I have fitted & indexed.

One could easily fit without pulling the complete engine as long as the groove was cleaned out properly & the seal is fitted carefully & undamaged.

That said I have always had the crankshaft out with the ones I have done.

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John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:31 pm

Fantastic. That was the definitive answer I was looking for. Sad part is that I've already ordered up another set of (the wrong) seals. Am I correct in assuming that to properly set up a rope seal, the crank has to come down (or engine out, whichever)? I thank you very much for your time!

Mark

editted: is there a source for the "center seal" in your picture? I gathered from my reading that they are not readily available.

reread this entire thread and it looks like the only thing available is from a company called Joop? I'll be writing them, too. How long did it take for those who ordered from them to get theirs?
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by artificer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:23 am

Am I correct in assuming that to properly set up a rope seal, the crank has to come down (or engine out, whichever)?
Crank OUT with rope is what I would do as it is impossible to fit the rope type unless you do something similar to what is shown in the video.
You did watch that?
The Payen type [easily indexed & lip facing oil] can be fitted with crank down & slide in using a bamboo chop stick....nothing metal!
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:15 am

Yes, I did watch the video. Thought it was great. I was left wondering though, why he put sealant in the block groove and then the oil soaked seal on top of that.

I'll be trying to cancel my order with kaiserwillys this morning, they don't open for another hour.

I've also written to "info@staman.nl", the address in this thread that seems to lead to the holy grail of Jeep rear main seals. Waiting to hear back.

I thank you again for your time in responding, but mostly for your patience. I know you've had this discussion too many times already.

On a side note, I visited your beautiful country back in '08. Two weeks in Sydney was nowhere near long enough and I look forward to a return trip.

Happy New Year.

Mark
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by artificer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:44 pm

Mark wrote:I was left wondering though, why he put sealant in the block groove and then the oil soaked seal on top of that.
So did I.
Having employed original oil soaked, graphited rope seals dozens of times in L/F134's & other different marques over the years successfully, using sealant [or staking] is NOT needed.

BTW please put the index skeptic out of his misery/denial, when you get the French Army type seal & do things right.

I'll put this in for others to note....if main bearings are worn, a new seal does little to no good & is just a band aid solution. Usually lasts long enough to sell the vehicle. :roll:
That is why I insist on having the engine out & on the bench so all can be checked & done properly.

Having both US & Australian citizenship, we visit the US about every other year usually for a couple of months.
Both countries are similar in size & have their attributes [aside from the positive absence of gun nuts] & just couple of weeks does neither real justice.

Our island neighbour New Zealand is really beautiful & one can do a lot there in a couple of weeks.
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TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:43 pm

I've seen your mention of bad bearings wreaking havoc on a new seal. Mine appear to be in decent shape. I agree, though, that to do it properly, one should inspect/replace the bearings while in there. Then there's the cam bearings... and on and on. I count my blessings that my Jeep is driveable. Short term goal is to stop the major leaks. Long term will be to rebuild the motor. I am really impressed with how simple and straight forward the motor is. Incredible design.

Not to worry about indexing the seal. As I mentioned, I've done that in the past with other engines with great success.

If you ever make it to the Carolina's, I would be honored to buy you a steak dinner and adult beverage of your choice ;-)

Mark
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:15 pm

Quick update.

I had some time and put the new seal in. I purchased two (the lip type - Payen - from Joop), just to be on the safe side. It went in surprisingly easy. Made me a little uneasy. Indexed it about 7 degrees. Took my time, made sure everything was clean and tight, oil pan back on, and just let it sit for a while. Put in some new 40w oil and cranked it with no spark just to build up some oil pressure. Then let it fire and just idled for a little bit, maybe five minutes. Shut it down and left it alone. There is a tiny drop of oil on the cardboard underneath, I am hoping that that was just some residual in the bell housing as I had the front end jacked up pretty high. The real test will come when it warms up a little and I can get it for a good run.

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Re: rear main seal info

Post by bootsperformance » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:48 am

I just finished up installing the payen seal in my mb indexed it like I normally do on any small block or big block Chevy sealed it all up waited till the next day installed the engine and drove 60 miles not a single drop
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:59 am

Fantastic! Very happy for you. I took mine out for a spin around the yard. Looks like I still have a very minor drip :( Much better than it was before the new seal, but I'll probably wind up having to pull the motor and doing it right.

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Re: rear main seal info

Post by artificer » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:04 am

John wrote:The reasons the rear main seal leaks are:
1. Worn main bearings [this is the primary cause on a tired engine that is leaking & fitting a new seal of any type won't fix this leak].
2. Grooved/rusted/pitted crank journal sealing surface [the rubber lip or edge type seal performs worse in this scenario].
3. Improperly fitted seal.
Go back to Sean's pictures as they are a really good presentation of the proven best type of neoprene seal provided the journal is clean smooth & round [clearly there is/was more than one manufacturer].
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=219390&start=45#p1501262
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:07 pm

I had a late hour thought: Maybe my road draft tube was plugged causing excessive pressure to build up in the crank case. Took it apart, wide open. Cleaned it up and put it back in. Inside of the crankcase is surprisingly clean.

Mark
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by bootsperformance » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:21 pm

250 miles so far still clean as a whistle.
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by Chevy427z » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:56 am

OK, now you're just taunting me! LOL Very happy for you! Haven't had a chance to get mine out for a good run yet.
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Re: rear main seal info

Post by artificer » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:19 pm

BTT might save others having to wade through all this stuff & get the right part 1st time....
Sean Collins wrote:
cjv-35 wrote:.. Sean , never heard of the National 5585 seal.
It was a true lip seal made back in the day, out of production for many years now, so it doesn't get much exposure or comment. It's a better design than the Victor, so don't know why it didn't make it.

The Midwest/Best seal appears to use the same lip style, w/slightly different groove fit molding.
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John Bartons engine rebuild series showed one installed in the main cap (but backwards :-)
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John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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