Methods of rust and paint removal

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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W. Winget
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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by W. Winget » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:36 am

As no one has mentioned it, "Evaporust" and treatments like it are out there that really do a great job of removing rust and leaving only a soft phosphate coating, even leaving the original paint alone on the piece. I tossed in a rusty 1918 Blacksmith Chest and after 24 hours had shinny new metal and black painted handles appear, turned it over and did the other half for a finish treatment.
Recommend using a plastic 55 Gallon drum (or smaller plastic) as the batch i put in the steel 55 Gallon Drum did not last as long, likely from the steel lining... :oops:
Evaporust isn't cheap, it's sold in Walmart, and online there are other companies which will sell a 5 Gallon jug you mix with water to create about 30 Gallons of final product for around $80 which if circulated by a small pond or fountain pump can coat larger panels and drip back into a kiddie pool for re-circulation.
No sweat involved.
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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by jkillelea » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:06 am

I wanted to share this with all. I purchased an original small mouth gas tank with only seeing pictures, which didn't look too bad. When I got it, it had copper soldered to the floor and rear wall which covered all the rust through. I hadn't asked if it was rusty inside before I bought it. It was covered, and the copper had helped enclose the dampness which brought about more rust. So carefully cut the bottom and back wall out and put it in the rust electrolysis solution. Electrolysis DOES remove paint. Here are the shots of what it looked like. I welded new metal where necessary and leaded as best as I could. I also used JB weld, then used KBS coating to seal the insides of the tank. This worked pretty well and held water great as a test. After completely dry, I put gas in and found leaks (gas will seep where water didn't). So I had to go through a huge process to remove the lining and repair the leaks; again JB weld. Then I recoated the tank with KBS and it has held fine for a couple of years. The tank won't win any beauty contests, but the ugly part is hidden.
Good luck with the process. Again, apple cider vinegar is an acid and will dissolve rust beautifully, then dissolve steel as well, so you have to monitor it. Electrolysis is ideal and removes only rust. The solution does get pretty ugly, BUT the crap settles to the bottom of the container after awhile and you can pour off the good solution and dump the rusty stuff.
John
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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by YLG80 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:46 am

jkillelea wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:06 am
I wanted to share this with all.
Very nice job.

Regarding brass, the electrolytic de-rusting and cleaning works very well.
I've successfully cleaned up artillery fuses found dug in the ground since WWI.
The fuse nose with the time graduations in brass was really shiny and very clean after the de-rusting.

Also that Baldenweck table for the Schneider 155mm cannon that was found dug in the ground by my father in law in a field.
That was the hole :lol: :
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It was left there broken in two parts, now repaired, by the French troops in 1940.

There is a price to pay when derusting brass pieces like that.
The derusting process leaves silver traces because of the zinc in the brass alloy.
The traces are more visible if the alloy is heterogeneous as it was during WWI.
So you have a mix of pink copper traces with silver zinc traces.
(That Baldenweck artillery table was made in 1917 and used again in 1940 :mrgreen: !)

But the result is still very good.(table size is about 50cm X 45cm)
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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by JAB » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:09 am

Wolfman wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:42 am
Great link, Jeff.
So, the graphite is holding up, just the fasteners are dissolving ???
I was told the water would evaporate from the solution. You just need to add more water. No need to add more detergent.
You would need to change the solution, because it got too nasty, long before the detergent gave out.
The black stuff is oxide. What is left of the rust.
Once cleaned, something needs to be one to prevent more rust from forming. It will. Pretty quick.
Yup!
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Interesting stories on the artillery stuff, gas tank, and alternate chemical method! Thanks for sharing!
-Jeff

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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by JAB » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:27 am

Continuing with the theme of this thread....
Although the soda bath electrolosis method works, especially for paint removal, I haven't been overjoyed about the rust removing abilities and the need to sand or wirewheel the black coating it leaves behind, especially in difficult to access areas of the parts. As a result, I continued to look for a better way to prep for paint. I heard of a product called Ospho, http://ospho.com/ which is highly recommended by folks on the Old Willys Forum https://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/index.php I did a little more digging and found this product https://www.rust911.com/ that sounded a bit better and a bit more economical. I'm doing two GPW frames at the same time and was looking for something that worked (removed the rust), could be re-used (at least a few times) or at least go a long way, and was economical (a frame is rather large). At roughly $70/gallon for the concentrate and a 16:1 dilution ratio I was getting about 17 gallons of rust removing chemical for $70 ($4.12/gallon for the first use) and some effort. Luckily, at the half way point of one frame being treated (well, actually just the inner rails that I'm just too tired of sanding with a wire brush on a sawzall) I seem to be ready for primer in less than 48 hours. I'll have to store the remaining chemical in 5-gallon pails for a few weeks until frame #2 is ready for dipping. Compared to the effort and expenditure on wire wheels and extra course sandpaper, not to mention elbow grease that's in short supply due to arthritis, I'm pleased at the results and hopeful to get the other two inner frame rails done and a bunch of other parts before the stuff losses its potency (indicated by turning black).

Here's what I did and the the results;

To be economical I only purchased one gallon of concentrate for roughly $70. I needed a container to hold the 17 gallons of mixed solution while the frame soaked for 24 hours. I had some scrap lumber around here that was the trim on my old garage doors and some 4 X 4's and other dimensional lumber that I use for blocking, etc. Making a big tub wouldn't do because I only had 17 gallons to work with. I needed to build a container that allowed the frame rails to be completely submerged by only 17 gallons. I started with a frame of 1 X 8's that was (IIRC) 125 X 16 and I needed a depth of about 5 inches. (Trivia; I call the Buick V6 in my CJ5 "the gallon motor because 231 cubic inches = 1 gallon) So, 125 X 16 X 5 = 10,000 which divided by 231 is just over 43 gallons. I still needed to displace about 26 gallons to get it down to 17 gallons and still submerge the frame rails. By strategically placing scrap lumber around the frame areas that were "voids" in the vat I was able to make it work.
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Then I unrolled about 12 feet of heavy plastic sheeting, and left it doubled (reduce the tripping hazard and double the protection from loss) and placed it in the vat. I put pieces of 5/8" heater hose on the two shock mounts to prevent poking holes in the sheeting and slit some more heater hose for the frame ends and the transmission crossmember mounts to prevent slicing the sheeting from those sharp edges.
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Then I tested it with 16 gallons of water (three five gallon pails and some more, it's not an exact science, the concentration mix is a bit forgiving) and was very happy to see that my caculations were spot on!
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I added the chemical by gentlily pouring in the openings of the frame rail. For good measure I turned on the pump that I intend to use to empty it to circulate the solution for a few minutes.

I even found a spot where I could submerge slightly more than half of the water pump. It turned out great compared to what it looked like before!
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After 24 hours I removed the frame, drained it into the vat, rinsed it thoroughly with the garden hose, and dried it with the leaf blower. Then, I used the pump to transfer the solution into a few 5 gallon pails, moved the boards to their mirror image in the vat, put the sheeting back in and flipped the frame over to soak the other side. The solution is starting to turn black, so hopefully it will still work for the other frame.

Here are the results. You can see the "water line" plain as can be. For the most part I can prep what the solution didn't reach with the wire wheel and rust converter. My main concern was for the inner frame rails.
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The metal is more "paint ready" with this method than it was when I used my previous methods of manually prepping the inner paint rails and treating them with rust converter. I'm pleased with the rust911 product and the results. It's so safe that the MSDS doesn't even tell you what's in it. I'm sure if I (everybody) could figure that out they'd be out of business because it's got to be some common inexpensive chemical!
-Jeff

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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by dpcd67 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:17 am

All very interesting, I might have said this before. I take my rusty parts to the sand blast guy. He makes them 100% clean in minutes. Primes if I want. I pay him and bring them home and make them green. No fuss, no mess, no drama. No time for chemistry experiments.
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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by JAB » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:41 am

Is he able to get the inner frame rails? That's been my concern and why I've treated everything with a rust converter prior to priming. I think I'll still treat these two though.
-Jeff

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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by dpcd67 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:38 am

On a GPW you mean? I remove those and re rivet them in. Don't do many GPWs any more.
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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by JAB » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:53 am

dpcd67 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:38 am
On a GPW you mean? I remove those and re rivet them in. Don't do many GPWs any more.
Wow! I tip my hat to you! I haven't had one that I was inspired to go that extreme on! Carry on!
-Jeff

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Re: Methods of rust and paint removal

Post by dpcd67 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:58 pm

When they are 1/3rd rusted away anyway, it is necessary. I see very few good GPWs left anyway, to restore.
Not that big of a deal to remove the inner frames and not hard to make them either. Need a good sheet metal shop to bend them.
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