Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:15 am

Hi guys...

Sorry for the delay.

I investigated this matter further last night. I tried to see if I could narrow the binding down to a specific gear, but it was almost impossible. I’m pretty sure it isn’t a specific area on the 1st/rev. gear, or the equivalent gear on the cluster gear, because I couldn’t see any repeating pattern when counting the teeth between when the binding occurs. No problems in reverse or 2nd/3rd. My suspicion is the MD gear and cluster gear. I believe there have been talks about the holes in the case for the cluster gear, are too close to the MD gear, on these supposedly (but maybe not) WOF cases.

I flushed the case, refilled with fresh GL-1 gear oil, and took the chassis for a drive. There was a quite distinctive snarling or growling sound all through the 1st gear, increasing with revolutions. 2nd and 3rd were totally silent and very smooth. Also nothing to be heard or felt in reverse.

I don’t think this is just parts lapping in to each other, the snarling noise is just too aggressive, is my evaluation.
I don’t think there will be anything else to do now, than to take a deep breath and get the transmission out of the chassis and onto the bench, to try and figure this out. I am having my suspicions with the case, which means I will have to start all over, building this transmission into another case...
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26203
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Novato, CA

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:35 am

Carsten...

It may be time now to remove the T84 from the rolling chassis. However, before tearing the T84 apart, perhaps you can check on something first...

1) Since you have another WG or Ford T84 case available, I would suggest you remove the front bearing retainer and measure the distance between the opening for the bearing and the opening for the cluster gear shaft. If it is possible, also measure the SIZE of both those openings.

2) After replacing the front bearing retainer, measure the distance between the Cluster shaft opening and the Idler shaft opening and the opening for the rear bearing....

Compare those measurements to an original WG or Ford case and post what you find. If you do not have an original T84 case, perhaps you can borrow one. I would prefer you do the measuring on BOTH cases as you are positive about what those measurements are and how you arrived at them.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

dinof
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1873
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Arcadia Ca.

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by dinof » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:04 pm

As a person that has that same transmission case that you are using, There was never at any time that the defects consisted of the holes being drilled to close to each other. The person that knew all about this case is no longer here. He knew the ins and outs of this specific case. He helped me a lot when I rebuilt mine. Of course, he was kicked out of here because someone else always seemed to pick a fight with him. And now that person decided to leave so there you go. Just pull the trans & transfer case out and find out whats going on. By the sound of it it should be noticeable.

In listening to that sound its making, I wouldn't be surprised if it was not coming from the transmission, but possibly from the transfer case.
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43

User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:02 am

Dino,

Yes, too bad when valuable knowledge and experience disappears! Are you specifically talking about Gindi? Maybe he could be found elsewhere...

I had the thought of the problem coming from the transfer case too, but based on these things, I am quite sure that is not the case:
- There is noticeable binding in the transmission, when 1st gear is engaged, clutch is pressed in, and gears are spun by fingers. When the binding disappears, and gears are spun as fast as possible by fingers, I can actually hear the snarling noice from 1st gear.
- There is no noise at all when in reverse, 2nd or 3rd. This goes for idle with transfer in neutral, with noise increasing with engine revs, and also for actual driving, with noise still increasing with engine revs.
- There was a slight binding when I assembled the case, especially in 1st gear, but it didn’t feel as much, maybe because I could provide more torque through the input shaft, when transmission was on the bench, compared to the torque I can turn the gears by fingers with. This binding was actually addressed in the “Building a T-84 transmission!” thread, but I decided it was just the parts wearing in. Quite a huge mistake, which I am now paying for...

Now, if I am going to remove the transmission anyway, I guess I could start by draining the transfer case, and take the drive gear off the transmission main shaft. The engine can then be started with transfer case being completely disengaged from transmission. This should tell if noise is still present, or if it came from transfer case.
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

Wolfman
G-Lieutenant General
G-Lieutenant General
Posts: 5274
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Tipton,In.

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Wolfman » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:16 am

I am still weary of just tearing the transmission apart. You may end up with a pile of parts and nothing obviously wrong.
Then where do you go ???
At one point you said the noise did not appear until you tightened the nut on the rear of the mainshaft. ???
All the nut does is clamp everything between the snap ring in front of the rear bearing and the nut together on the rear bearing center race.
This keeps the mainshaft assembly centered on the rear bearing.
Loosening the rear nut and developing slack from doing this might change the position of, Something ??
I would still hold off a bit on tearing the whole thing apart.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 46 yrs)
EAA ( 46 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

Joe Gopan
Gee Addict
Posts: 48217
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:28 am

And you did replace the Intermediate Shaft and he two caged bearings in the transfer?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:56 am

Thanks Mike,

I agree, and I have also been very reluctant to do this, unless absolutely needed. It is my own fault, as I didn’t address the binding seriously enough, when the transmission was put together on the bench. I knew it is normal that a brand new transmission can feel a little tight on the bench, but work absolutely perfect in the vehicle. I thought that was the issue, but the uneven binding through the MD drive gear revolution, should have awoken my attention at that time, I’m sorry to admit.

Now, I’m not interested in speeding this. I have plenty of time, and trying everything around the transmission first, before eventually taking everything apart, is obviously the clever way to go, so again - every contribution to this thread is highly appreciated - thank you, all!

My next move was to drain the transfer case, in order to remove the drive gear on the rear of the main shaft. Can the engine then be started, and the transmission be operated in all gears, to see if the noise is still present? I know the mainshaft will not be pulled back in the case, but will there be any danger doing this shortly, to test if the transfer case is involved? Can I install a piece of pipe the same thickness as the transfer case gear, and then torque it down with the washer and nut, to keep the mainshaft pulled back in the case?
Before taking the gear off, I will see if the nut can be tightened any further. I remember tightening it pretty hard, but I did that on the bench. I can probably get it tighter now in the chassis, by putting the transmission in 1st. If I can tighten it further, I will refill the transfer, and see if this did anything good. I have never seen any torque value for that nut, so I guess it just needs to be very tight, yes?
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:09 am

Joe Gopan wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:28 am
And you did replace the Intermediate Shaft and he two caged bearings in the transfer?
Yes Joel, I put in a high quality set of shaft, thrust washers and bearings, made by Richard Sanders.
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26203
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Novato, CA

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:36 am

Carsten….

You will not be able to start the motor and check the T84 once you remove the T/C and the gear and the castle nut. If you do that, the main shaft can now move towards the rear, the 13 roller bearings may fall into the bottom of the T84 and the blocking ring on 3rd gear can drop and get jammed between the Main Gear and the synchro. If you had one of these from a trashed T/C, you could attach that, the slinger, the gear, washer and nut and then start you motor:
TC Dummy Rear.jpg
Please, do not go off on a wild goose chase trying to mess with the T/C before finding what the REAL problem is with the T84!

You have, I believe eliminated the intermediate shaft and the roller bearings because this NOISE is only in 1st gear! If the problem was in the T/C, then the noise would be there in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Rev because the T/C does not know what gear you are in and therefore can't only make that noise in just ONE of those gears!

You may wish to remove the inspection cover on the rear of the T/C so you can confirm that the nut is TIGHT.

I'm with the guys who do NOT want you to tear everything apart just yet.

PS....there are the French cases with "WOF" cast on them and then there are the cases attributed to "WOF" that only have the circle/swirl marking. I believe that Mike Stopforth had a few of them and Terry O'Connor built up a couple. If I remember correctly, he had some issues with at east ONE of them. Perhaps they are NOT the "WOF" cases at all and just a "replacement" case from Europe where Brent Mullins got them from and probably where others obtained them from.

Luc Cousens would have been able to chime in here on the quality and origin of these "circle/swirl" cases. Too bad about that, right?

As far as measuring that case and any other empty WG or Ford cases goes....I like the carpenter's saying. "Measure twice, cut once!"
In this instance, I'd say "Measure twice, disassemble once".

Perhaps another of the European jeep guys has had a similar experience with one of these cases and can comment on how he solved the problem?
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:30 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:36 am
Carsten….

You will not be able to start the motor and check the T84 once you remove the T/C and the gear and the castle nut. If you do that, the main shaft can now move towards the rear, the 13 roller bearings may fall into the bottom of the T84 and the blocking ring on 3rd gear can drop and get jammed between the Main Gear and the synchro.
Read my post, again - Chuck.
It was not my intention to run the engine and transmission with the transfer case physically removed! I am well aware that would cause an issue or two! :lol:
I would ONLY drain the transfer case (did that 10 minutes ago), remove the gear on the mainshaft, after checking if it was tight. Then the engine could be started, and the transmission run in all gears. If it would be a problem that the mainshaft wasn’t tight on the rear bearing anymore, because I removed the gear in the transfer case, I suggested that some sort of spacer could take up for the removed gear, and be tightened up (with the same effect as the gear being tight on the mainshaft).
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26203
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Novato, CA

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:37 am

If the problem was in the T/C, then that noise would happen in any gear the T84 was in, right?
The T/C should be considered ELIMINATED, because the noise is ONLY when the T84 is in 1st gear.
There is NO need to isolate the T84 from the T/C if the noise is in the T84.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:05 pm

Yes, you are right, it is not very likely, and if I’m going to take the transmission out anyway, this quick and easy test is easily done in the proces, and would rule out the transfer case definitely.
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

Bruce W
G-Lieutenant Colonel
G-Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:45 pm
Location: Northeast Colorado

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Bruce W » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:39 pm

My $.02 -
If the problem was in the case (holes being bored too close together, etc.), and everything inside was "round" and concentric, the problem would be "too tight" or "too loose" all the way around, or at any point in the rotation of any/all of the gears. The issue of something too tight part way around indicates that something is not round, it's tight on one side and loose or correct on the other. You cannot establish a "tooth count" re-occurrence because the gears are "non-hunting" which means that the same tooth-to-tooth contact does not happen in many hundreds (or thousands) of revolutions. If the problem were at the front, i.e. at the input gear/cluster gear interface, it would make noise in all gears except third, and maybe that one too. In 1st, 2nd, and reverse, the input gear is driving the cluster gear under pressure. Only in 3rd is the pressure absent, the cluster coasting.
Am I the only one here who did not miss, ignore, or forget the remark made by the OP, and the seventh picture on page 2? to wit: "Now, I noticed some small marks on the 1st/rev gear, just between the teeth, on the forward edge towards the 2nd gear. As mentioned earlier, the gear was a brand new Richard Sanders gear, so I’m pretty sure those marks weren’t there, when I assembled the case." Something is obviously contacting the 1st speed gear where it should not be. Either the first gear portion of the cluster gear is mis-machined, where the teeth are too long, or the 1st-rev gear is mis-machined, where the teeth are not machined deeply enough. Or both. I just came from a similar issue, where a repro D-18 intermediate gear and a Warn overdrive bowl gear would not play together.
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/over ... ive#458924
Again, just my $.02, but I ask you to consider it.
BW
G Trp 2nd Sqdrn 3d Armored Cavalry Ft. Lewis 1970-71. 43GPW(Sarge?) 47CJ2A(Teddy) 47CJ2A(Rusty) 48CJ2A(Uncle Linden) 53CJ3B(Nelybel) 88XJ(Pluto) NE CO

User avatar
Carsten
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1288
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:57 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Carsten » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:21 am

Hi Bruce...

What you are saying makes sense. But if the problem is only with the 1st/rev. gear or with the equivalent gear on the cluster, wouldn’t the binding happen in the same place on every revolution of that specific gear? Or is this maybe a situation where two gears both machined to their maximum specs, don’t work very well together?

Interesting thread on the cj2a site. I’m glad you got it sorted out...
Carsten
Nyborg, Denmark
_________________
1945 Willys MB 409616 (ex-Austrian Army)

Wolfman
G-Lieutenant General
G-Lieutenant General
Posts: 5274
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:25 am
Location: Tipton,In.

Re: Transmission noise in 1st gear (video)

Post by Wolfman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:48 am

Been doing some thinking about wanting to take the nut & gear off the rear of the mainshaft and running the engine.
That would leave the mainshaft and associated parts floating in rear main bearing.
The pipe spacer in place of the gear and the nut tight makes sense. Otherwise, the mainshaft would be able to shift forward and may cause binding the 3rd gear side of the synchronizer. Mainly the brass blocking ring. Not sure what else might come into contact.
My first reaction ??? Don't think I would do it. If something did go wrong, with the engine running, by the time you realize it, there could be some real damage done.
I like your $.02 worth Bruce.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 46 yrs)
EAA ( 46 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

Post Reply

Return to “MB GPW Technical Knowledge Base”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1944gp, Google Adsense [Bot], jeepmb, kdmann143, Nigel, r w devon, rob123, steviem and 5 guests