Stupidity ruins it for everyone

[Old Dodge Guy]

I thank the above posters for their discussion on the semantics and words involved about the gentleman in this case, but both need to address the fact that he did NOT act alone.
The "child" was grubbing around in places that a "reasonable" person would deem OFF LIMITS! That being....in a closed bag, wrapped by other bags/paraphernalia, in an enclosed space....the toolbox.....in the jeep, UNDER the seat.
Arguably a "SAFE PLACE". Should it have been unloaded....probably. Should the tool box have been locked...probably. Should it have been secured differently....probably.
SHOULD THE KID HAVE BEEN BETTER SUPERVISED...................YES!
It took 2 to tango.......not ALL the blame should go to the gentleman.

Now you got me to shoulda/woulda/coulda......

[Ron D]

No doubt there's lots of unanswered questions to arm-chair quarterback here. Like this one: would a "reasonable person" (like you or me), who was additionally trained in the legal implications and issued a concealed carry permit by the state, hide a loaded gun in an open and unlocked people magnet like a historic military jeep on display on public property at a public venue, and then walk away from it?

Pretty sure the answer would be and should be "NO".

Did he hang a "Keep Off" or "No Trespassing" sign on the jeep before he walked away? No indication he even took that action. Even if he did, is it enforceable in a public place if he walks away from it? Doubtful. Can ignorant people and their kids read and obey signs? Doubtful. Ignorant kids and their parents have nothing to do with this, other than having the bad luck that brought them in the presence of an irresponsible gun owner at the wrong time. Was there a sign on the entrance gate to the public property saying "No Weapons Allowed"? If there was, did the gun owner ignore it? Would a "reasonable person" (like you or me) ignore that sign?

Did he bother to unload the gun before stashing it and walking away? No, he obviously didn't. Would a "reasonable person" (like you or me) have at least done that much? Maybe so. Doing that alone would've prevented the shooting. Headline would've been "Kid found playing with UNloaded gun".

It's a shame that the MVPA has to defend itself in this instance. A different poster mentioned tort reform, something badly needed but will never happen in this country, not so long as lawyers are writing the laws. Too many lawyers stand to lose too much money if that happened. Hint: quit voting lawyers to Congress and your state legislature.

I think that any one of us "reasonable people" better think long and hard before bringing a loaded gun anywhere near a public display of historic military vehicles. It would sure help avoid a lot of heartburn, or worse, for many.

[DDTrustee]

Ron is only partially right......he goes wrong by not saying "Don't vote BLUE lawyers into office and vote as many RED laweyrs in as you can find" - there are a bunch of 2A and range defense lawyers out there quietly doing their jobs. Better yet, but won't happen: if it's BLUE toss it out - anything in Congress or a statehouse is better than BLUE.
Not quite off topic, but close...but that comment needed correction.

[Bill H.]

Please fellas, let's leave the politics out of this. Last hint.

[Rustman]

Like many tragic incidents or failures there is not a single point but multiple. In this situation I can ascertain three things that had to go wrong that ended with a person being shot.

1. A firearm was not adequately secured from misuse/accidental discharge.
2. A child was not taught/supervised by a guardian to not handle/rummage through private property.
3. A child was not educated on even basic firearm safety.

1 and 2 should be a given in any society. number 3 is asking a lot. But had ANY of these not occurred nobody would have been shot that day.

Matthew

[Ron D]

I'm just a dumb Jarhead, Rustman.

It seems simple to me. There is one and only one single point of failure here (not "multiple").

Logically thinking --- if #1 never happened, then #2 or #3 would never have entered the picture (or at least they would've been harmless).

The only reason #1 happened is because the gun owner decided to do what he should never have done in the first place. He knowingly (not accidentally) created the hazard in a public (not private) space, and he made a serious mistake by doing so.

Any responsible gun owner knows this. Leave a loaded gun unsecured in your own home with children present and think you won't be in serious trouble if something bad happens?

It's a shame that he dragged the MVPA and his local chapter into his decision. Something for all of us to think about.

Personally, but especially in a public event, I'd never walk off and let the jeep out of my sight, or a trusted companion's sight. Leave it unguarded around people nowadays? Are you kidding me? Not happening. Way too much blood, sweat, and tears invested to do that nonsense.

[clintm20]

If it goes as far as trial I'd like to wish the MVPA lawyer good luck and also encourage he/she not to make any references to the movie "My Cousin Vinny" during proceedings, or at least not in front of the judge.

[Rustman]

I'm just a dumb Jarhead, Rustman.

It seems simple to me. There is one and only one single point of failure here (not "multiple").

Logically thinking --- if #1 never happened, then #2 or #3 would never have entered the picture (or at least they would've been harmless).

I completely agree with you. I guess what I was trying to say is that even with #1 occurring, #2 or #3 could have prevented it. It took all of the above for this to happen, any one of them could have prevented it. But they aren't equally weighted. #1 is the big one here. The person responsible for the firearm did not have it adequately secured to prevent accidental/unintentional misused.

Matt

[RCASSIN]

It is incredible how dumb some ADULTS are. Many times at shows adults WITHOUT permission have taken my Thompson dummy off my WLA and started playing with it. This only takes a few seconds of me not paying attention....

[GUNNUT in Iowa]

It is incredible how dumb some ADULTS are. Many times at shows adults WITHOUT permission have taken my Thompson dummy off my WLA and started playing with it. This only takes a few seconds of me not paying attention....

I had my US military gun collection (more than 30 weapons) on display - electrical cables through the trigger guards and "Do Not Handle" cards sitting on the cable. I also display bayonets with the rifles.

I turned around to see a 30ish year old father holding the M-16 A2 (clone) with the cable stretched and the card laying off to the side. I really wish the connectors would have disconnected. It makes a rather annoying high pitched screaming sound that does NOT stop until I insert the key in the alarm box. Anyway he was holding the rifle in one hand and the bayonet in the other hand. He was showing his 10ish year old son how the bayonet attached to the rifle.

He thought he was teaching his son about weapons. I thought he was teaching his son about not respecting other people's property and ignoring warnings. I informed him (in front of his son) the error of his ways. I fancy the son learned more than the father . . . but I suspect the father told his son something different after they left.

[RCASSIN]

Well, at one show while I was attempting to get my Thompson back from a disrespectful guy, I notice that my USMC Kawasaki 650 Motorcycle, which is a tall and heavy bike, was being climbed on by a 3 year old so I abandoned the Thompson mission and ran to the bike realizing that it was about to fall on the kid. It did fall but I managed to get the kid out of the way. Boy, did I scream at the mother who was clueless. The fall broke the rear light which off course is a hard to find item..The moral of the story is don't bring them to the shows or have at least 4 eyes watching. I had 5 vehicles at the event. Nearly impossible to supervise them all...

[Hired Goon]

I have some thoughts on this thread too. Leaving a loaded gun unattended, even buried under gear, is clearly a bad idea. A key factor is that not all folks raise their kids to respect other people’s property. I think some folks could be a bit more compassionate and realize that they have also done dumb things from time to time and maybe been very fortunate that there were no consequences.

Going to shows is a lot of fun. Folks who are interested in the history and vehicles, are a great part of shows. Letting folks sit in the vehicles and handle the gear is part of the show, when folks ask and are respectful. They have a good time and I feel good being a part of the event. On the other hand, I have seen countless times where folks climb on or sit on vehicles and handle gear without asking, even to the point of moving gear off the seats so they can sit down. Shows are not an amusement park, paying their admission does not entitle folks to think they can ride the rides. The good outweighs the bad by a large measure, so I focus on the positive aspects and “educate” the ignorant from time to time.

[Jeeps4Brains]

As an ex-president of our local MVPA Affiliate we are discussing this event and what might be the actions of the MVPA.

We sent out the news that the MVPA sent about the event to all our members. Now each year we push all our local folks in our Organization to be members of the MVPA but they don’t all join. All our Local officers are required to be members of the MVPA.

We got some responses back from our members, ‘I am not a member of the MVPA and don’t care.’ That means if we go to an event that we have asked the MVPA to approve of we have mix of some that are MVPA members and some that are not. So, if the nonmembers do something that hurts or upsets the Public then all the local group as well as the MVPA are now impacted.

On another note we require all our members to have vehicle insurance on what they bring to shows. And we don’t have a way to enforce that other than asking. I know a few members that would be ticked off about that question since they only bring their stuff to events on trailers.

We require our members to have Chock Blocks for their vehicles at events. They know this because we require them to sign off on our Safety Rules. Still they come to shows without them. Do we send them away? No, we made a bunch of them and carry them to shows to pass out to those that don’t have them. Some folks just won’t be responsible.

So, to me one option is either the MVPA or our Local Org has to play hard ball and act like the Police to our members. If our Local Org does this, I can tell you we will have some folks that leave. Maybe on the National level as well.

I am not sure what the answer is. We can only wait right now for the MVPA to make decisions and see how that impacts us.

Our Local MVPA group formed because the local collectors kept going to events and meeting each other. A non-organized club formed around that group. They would call each other and meet as they wanted to, created swap meets and went to events like Aberdeen together. So, we joined the National MVPA to contribute to the support of our hobby. Now we wait to see what will happen.

[RCASSIN]

My group only requires fire extinguishers at shows but there is some talk of banning firearms'. In the end, the slip and fall lawyers will sue who ever has the money. The real perpetrator will only be sued if he has money.

[GPW1263]

Choice. That's one of the things that should be respected when we discuss all this. I know I'm gonna be in trouble with someone the moment I press the SUBMIT button but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Some folks are not 'joiners' and that matter can be a touchy subject when it comes to organizing things because the questions soon become - Where are the limits to being organized?

Most of us can remember The He-Man Woman Haters Club and how that turned out for Spanky and the gang. Not well.

Do we all form a circle and stand shoulder to shoulder to form a defensive ring and stare off into the middle distance like a bunch of Cape Buffalo?

Not much gets accomplished either way.

'And 'getting organized' seems to a hobby in and of itself with some folks.

I'm not saying organization is necessarily a bad thing but, when it becomes overly burdensome to the member ("too far down in the weeds", as we say in Texas) it begins to be a problem.

When an attempt to protect the organization (in the name of 'Safety') simply opens the organization up to additional legal peril (just peril coming from a different direction), it begins to be a problem.

Let's do a little mental exercise using the aforementioned wheel chocks. I am not poking fun at that individual who brought wheel chocks up but it's a very good case in point....and if you are curious about the roots of my perspective, there are more than a few judges, prosecutors and lawyers among my family and relatives. So, hold onto your hat because here we go.

Here are the wheel chock standards for the imaginary ABC123 Military Vehicle Club. And the higher the standards, folks...the farther one has to fall.

Upon parking, Members must employ wheel chocks. Wood chocks allowed.
next...
Chocks must be at least 1/4 of the height of the tire they are meant to secure.
next...
Wood chocks must be constructed with a curved surface that comes to taper that ends in not less than 7/16" and fits close against the curve of the tire.
next...
Wood chocks must be constructed of a single piece of timber not less than the width of the tire it is to be used with.
next...
Wood chocks must be constructed of center-cut timber, free from cracks and knots. (those of you who were truckers know this rule actually exists for dunnage) next...
Wood chocks must be inspected for cracks or other damage prior to each use. Damaged wood chocks shall not be used.
next...
Wood chocks must be constructed of pressure treated lumber to protect against rot, insect infestation.
next...
Wood chocks must be used in pairs (front and rear of any single tire) and must be joined by a flexible member.
next...
Wood chocks must be used in pairs on a single tire and joined by a flexible member such as cable or chain. The use of rope constructed of natural fibers is prohibited.
next...
A single, joined wood chock set may not be employed on more than one axle at any one time.
next...
Flexible members, such as cable or chain must be coated in plastic or encased in a flexible tube to protect hands against injury and protect the flexible member against chafing, galling.
next...
Wood chocks deployed with a flexible member shall have that flexible member neatly tucked away so as to prevent persons from tripping on it.
next...
Wood chocks must be finished in a bright color.
next...
Wood chocks must be finished in a sanded or non-skid finish in any of the following colors - Chrome Yellow or, Chrome Yellow.
next...next...next...blah, blah, blah.

Now, if all of the above sounds kind of like a good idea on its face....I doubt anyone would argue with you. But, we could certainly lengthen this list until it stretched to infinity. Overly burdensome? Maybe.

Chocks are a good idea. But we know not all chocks are created equal and not all chocks are equally useful on different kinds of surfaces.

Handing out wheel chocks (particularly home-made ones) opens the provider up to legal responsibility especially if it is done pursuant to club rules... So, doing something (in the name of safety) is not necessarily better than doing nothing. Instead, it really only shifts the potential for blame and just maybe opens up liability at far more levels than existed in the first place.

Legal peril comes to the club, not only for the home made chock that was handed out (and/or any deficiencies it might have) but in the manner of its use, now, then, and later. So, I'm rather doubtful any organization is actually better off pursuing the simple matter of wheel chocking in such a 'check-the-box' fashion.

All of the above really has not one thing to do with wheel chocks. It's meant to illustrate how troublesome clubs and their club rules can be. From my perspective, it's about 'hitching one's wagon' to a group that makes rules but at the same time, fails to indemnify one against harm for having followed those rules. That certainly doesn't make one's life any better. Fail to follow the rules and your backside is really hanging out there. Follow the rules and something goes wrong....the whole club's backside is swingin' in the breeze. No thanks. I'd rather live or die by my own sword.

We are like minded individuals. Having a local club that merely restates that painfully obvious fact seems unnecessary to me. That said, having a state or national PAC fund for pursuing legislation favorable to ownership of HMVs would hold some interest.

Cheers
GPW1263