Stupidity ruins it for everyone

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rgmutchler
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by rgmutchler » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:34 pm

I don't think much of preemptive actions when there has been no demonstrated need. \

John Neuenburg wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 am
That there could have been six souls meeting their Maker, all because of an inquisitive and ignorant child.

I guess I am contrary today since the story about the aircraft seems wrong. Looks to me like the ground crew failed to do it's job and blamed that on some kid who was doing what kids do without supervision.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Bill H. » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:07 pm

rgmutchler wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:34 pm
I don't think much of preemptive actions when there has been no demonstrated need. \

John Neuenburg wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 am
That there could have been six souls meeting their Maker, all because of an inquisitive and ignorant child.

I guess I am contrary today since the story about the aircraft seems wrong. Looks to me like the ground crew failed to do it's job and blamed that on some kid who was doing what kids do without supervision.
Me thinks you should go back through and re-read some of the posts. :wink:
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Ron D » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:34 pm

Hi Bill,
Could you make your point please? I've read all the posts and re-read them. I can't see what you're trying to get across that reading them yet again will make clear (to me at least). Please be specific. Help me understand. Thank you.

If straying off topic was your point, I get that. And agree.
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Bill H.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Bill H. » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:52 pm

Ron D wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:34 pm
Hi Bill,
Could you make your point please? I've read all the posts and re-read them. I can't see what you're trying to get across that reading them yet again will make clear (to me at least). Please be specific. Help me understand. Thank you.

If straying off topic was your point, I get that. And agree.
There is no point other than what I posted. Any hint of gun control can and will turn political very quickly. That's it. Thanks :wink:
Bill H.

"Each shall seek his own kind, in other words, a bird may love a fish but where would they build a home together?" Tevye, Fiddler on the Roof

1952 Dunbar Kapple M100
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1965 Stevens M416B1 X 2
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Ron D » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:33 pm

Thanks for the clarity Bill. Political discussion or comment about gun control not allowed, or at least discouraged, not recommended.
Stick to the topic, aye-aye!
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Kurt Lesser
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Kurt Lesser » Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:56 am

Todays society has failed us more than we realize. We no longer teach responsibility in or public indoctrination system along the same lines as we no longer teach anything beyond the Civil War. History didn't end there, just it's awareness. The Germans don't teach about WWII and neither do the Japanese. What we have now is distorted street learning in groups like Antifa and BLM. Lets not even think about the SJW morons.

When I was growing up I went to Scout Camp every summer where I learned about all the things the scouts believed in. Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Thrifty, Brave, Reverent. I haven't been a scout for 60 years but those values have stuck with me. Something else I learned at camp was how to handle a firearm. When it becomes routine you replace curiosity with respect and issues like this go away.

I remember a few years back our MV group was asked to do a Garand shoot at one of our meets. This would mean live weapons and live ammunition in the camp. Our By-Laws have a provision against this exactly for the reason the MVPA sent out this letter, so it was declined. Now I'm not foolish enough to believe there aren't live, loaded weapons at our meets. With 20+% of our members being active or retired Law Enforcement or military veterans we have to accept this will happen. The difference here is these are people trained in their weaponry. Not a 100% guarantee something like this couldn't happen but it certainly drives down the possibility. Much different than the Average Joe that's fascinated with guns. This is the guy that has to own the $4000 AR-15 when the cheapest AR on the market will accomplish the same result.

Ever since Common Sense followed Common Courtesy out the door we've seen an overall decline in our societies and God help us get it back!
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by clintm20 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:27 am

My take is the gun owner was complacent and someone got shot.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by David Hughes » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:20 pm

Kurt, you left out cheerful.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by David Hughes » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:22 pm

Oh, and clean. Good job off the top of your head after 60 years.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Kurt Lesser » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:56 pm

Must have been a liberal democrat moment!
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Ron D » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:01 pm

I don't think I'd describe the gun owner as "complacent", especially since I read he also has (or had) a federal firearms license, but somebody sure got shot.

Definition of complacent: marked by self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies, self-satisfied, unconcerned.

This is the word I'd use:

Definition of negligent: marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably; failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances, marked by a carelessly easy manner.

I'm sure the lawyers will sort it out, and justice and economics will be served. I like to think that the MVPA has good lawyers. We'll see. I also read that the victim survived the shot to the head, a very good thing.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by GPW1263 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm

I'm not sure I would call it stupid but is WAS foolish to relinquish control of that weapon.

Almost as foolish as accepting that it is patently Okay to tar every gun owner with the same brush....because apparently none of us can be trusted.

...and THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is where the real danger lies.

I am not talking about firearms, alcohol use, second-hand smoke, or speeding through school zones. I am talking about the reasonable belief that most of our fellow citizens wake up every day and do their level best to make good choices for themselves and for others. Well, they never make it into the news....but they ARE there, doing what they do, every darned day.

What we are headed toward is something far darker, where no one will be trusted and everyone will be managed by some authority in every aspect of their lives and there are a lot of ignorant people who want to see that happen. Remember the old adage about trading freedom for security? If you don't...you might want to look it up.

There is something vile about that sort of thinking and it goes directly against the values this country USED to have; important things like, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Cheers,
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Ron D » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:19 pm

Nice speech GPW1263, but try to keep it on topic please (the incident, the MVPA, the impact to the hobby, possible solutions, etc).....I thank you.

By the way, I don't see that he "relinquished" control of the weapon. There was no apparent force or duress involved, no coaching or pleading. He did it all on his own, willingly. And he knew what he was doing. Until maybe a lawyer proves otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty. But I've been told that nowadays it amounts to how much or how many lawyers you can afford. Hopefully that's an urban myth, as I have no personal experience.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by clintm20 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:17 am

I was thinking of this usage and the example they give since it directly involves security.

adjective
showing smug or uncritical satisfaction with oneself or one's achievements.
"you can't afford to be complacent about security"

I hesitate to describe it as negligent but that is probably more accurate especially in this situation since the lawyer's are now involved.

I like the end of the world speeches though they are always good for a few laughs. 8)
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by DDTrustee » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:34 am

In the law…..the element of foreseeability is required to insure his negligence….that is: was it foreseeable that a guest/invitee, sitting in the seat of an exhibited jeep, would allow her kid to root around under seats and into closed containers and then extract the loaded weapon. Depends to a degree on who the jury is: urban low-information suburban housewives who do not value the Second Amendment or see any use for it in our country = he’s dead meat; people with some historical context intelligence and having personal control and well-mannered children = he’s only a maybe or possibly only partially negligent (more circumstances needed to determine). Otherwise if unforeseeable the kid and mother are an intervening act that insulates him from foreseeability.
As to the MVPA: the fact that this was not a sanctioned event AND they had no role in creating the scenario (the meeting and display) or creating a means for his conduct to be negligent means they get out; They have no NEXUS to the act so that likely on a Motion to Dismiss, after some discovery depositions, they will get dismissed but not without that $25,000 payment by the insurance company to avoid further defense costs.
Just my opinion after doing this for 45 years, plaintiff’s lawyers almost always disagree with me! :shock: :mrgreen:
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