Stupidity ruins it for everyone

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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Ron D » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:10 am

I'm glad to hear there's no crime, violence, mayhem, or terrorism against people in Europe.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Rustman » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:42 am

YLG80 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:26 am
Or this one for those who are not living in the U.S. :wink:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/tennessee-ma ... eball-game

I don’t understand why people are allowed to carry or leave their load firearms unattended during peace time.
During peace time, weapons (not loaded) and ammos should be stored in distinct places so that if you reassemble them together, it means that you have clearly the intent to use the weapon.
That’s how I see safety with weapons.

But of course I’m living in Europe...in peace.
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Yves,

That is akin to questioning somebodies religion. Firearms culture is as entrenched into the United States as Catholicism is in Italy or Mexico. The American view of firearm ownership is literally enshrined into our Constitution. I won't advise you to to not ask those questions. Nor would I suggest you do. I am simply informing you that it is a topic foundational to American culture. Proceed at your own judgement.

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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Rustman » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:50 am

GUNNUT in Iowa wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:14 pm
Our society does not teach our children as much about firearms as we should.
I think this is an underrated point. I was fortunate that by age 8 I had been around my parents as they handled actual firearms and I was able to shoot pellet/bb pistols and rifles.

Children are not taught either by family or village how to treat firearms. The number of accidental child deaths from gunshot is way to high for something easily preventable.

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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by YLG80 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:22 am

Rustman wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:42 am
YLG80 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:26 am
Yves,

That is akin to questioning somebodies religion. Firearms culture is as entrenched into the United States as Catholicism is in Italy or Mexico. The American view of firearm ownership is literally enshrined into our Constitution. I won't advise you to to not ask those questions. Nor would I suggest you do. I am simply informing you that it is a topic foundational to American culture. Proceed at your own judgement.

Matthew
Hi Matthew, I know the firearms culture difference. My point was related to safety!

@Ron D:
The criminality level in the USA and Europe is about the same.
The only difference: we don't carry (loaded or unloaded) firearms in the streets.
So according to studies, the criminality level is not directly bound to the firearms ownership. I'm not totally convinced though :) !

I like weapons and especially the firearms embedded technology and sometimes the high level of perfection, but it's DANGEROUS!
And in this case the distraction and the owner negligence were fatal. Firewarms manipulation requires frequent training

I know a French guy who was nearly shot to death by a retired policeman. The victim will have health problems until the end of his life.
The former policeman "thought" that his weapon was empty after a shooting session.
By evidence he had lost his basic training...
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Chuck W. » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:42 am

Don't worry, Beto is going to fix it.

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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Old Dodge Guy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:07 am

Well, since the other forum is gone and I no longer have a way to find out about these things......Thank you for bringing more info out :!: :!:

I have had NO information on this since the MVPA letter. NONE! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: That was the first I had heard of it! ! There is no place for me to find out what is going on.

So, that said, please tell us more FACTUAL information, stop the shoulda/woulda/coulda before you get THIS forum killed!!! :twisted: :twisted:

I don't care a flyin flip your thoughts on gun control, whether it is in Europe or the United States! This is the U S A and it is now what it it is. Whether right or wrong it has happened.

So now Gentlemen.................what do we do now????????????????? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

KEEP IT ON TOPIC AND KEEP YOUR FLIPPIN OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Old Dodge Guy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:31 am

signsup wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:01 am
I no longer post on this forum. Ask Bill H. why not . . . but if you want to see the legal dockets in this case, I would post this:

https://circuitdata.shelbycountytn.gov/ ... &end_date=
And this and the similar attached news stories are what I mean by factual information. I can sorta....maybe....kinda see where the local affiliate can be "responsible" for one of it's members, why in blue blazes is the national group with NO idea of the event, even be brought into the suit.........except by greedy bastard humans that call themselves attorneys. :twisted: :twisted:
Please do NOT ask me how I really feel....I have been a MVPA member since 1976/member 555.

This may kill the MVPA or at least divide it. It WILL change it.
They finally after years and years, decided that re-enacting was not spawn of the devil and recognized that people could use their own vehicles as the owner say fit. And....gasp....show a dummy gun in a display. Those days look like they are gone and we are back in the stone ages of Military Vehicle Collecting.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by John Neuenburg » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:05 pm

The gun owner should be the only one in trouble. Not the event promoter, the MVPA-affiliated club who was invited by them or otherwise organized their members to attend, or the MVPA. At least not in a virtuous and correct-thinking society. It should be no different than if his jeep was sitting in a grocery store parking lot.

But this society is far from that ideal, isn't it?

Can someone be sued if he has a yard sale at his home and a shopper on his property trips over his garden hose and breaks his finger? Maybe in some states. That of course is just wrong, but it is why many people buy a $1,000,000 umbrella liability insurance policy when they buy their auto or home insurance.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by GUNNUT in Iowa » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:35 pm

John Neuenburg wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:05 pm
The gun owner should be the only one in trouble. Not the event promoter, the MVPA-affiliated club who was invited by them or otherwise organized their members to attend, or the MVPA. At least not in a virtuous and correct-thinking society. It should be no different than if his jeep was sitting in a grocery store parking lot.

But this society is far from that ideal, isn't it?

Can someone be sued if he has a yard sale at his home and a shopper on his property trips over his garden hose and breaks his finger? Maybe in some states. That of course is just wrong, but it is why many people buy a $1,000,000 umbrella liability insurance policy when they buy their auto or home insurance.
A true "chicken and egg" issue.

Do people buy a $1,000,000 umbrella policy because they might get sued . . .

or do people sue someone because they have a $1,000,000 umbrella insurance policy and it is easy money?
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Old Dodge Guy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:39 pm

GUNNUT in Iowa wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:35 pm
John Neuenburg wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:05 pm
The gun owner should be the only one in trouble. Not the event promoter, the MVPA-affiliated club who was invited by them or otherwise organized their members to attend, or the MVPA. At least not in a virtuous and correct-thinking society. It should be no different than if his jeep was sitting in a grocery store parking lot.

But this society is far from that ideal, isn't it?

Can someone be sued if he has a yard sale at his home and a shopper on his property trips over his garden hose and breaks his finger? Maybe in some states. That of course is just wrong, but it is why many people buy a $1,000,000 umbrella liability insurance policy when they buy their auto or home insurance.
A true "chicken and egg" issue.

Do people buy a $1,000,000 umbrella policy because they might get sued . . .

or do people sue someone because they have a $1,000,000 umbrella insurance policy and it is easy money?
Our local car club gets an annual policy to cover all our events "just in case". We have to have 1 million coverage per event. Most local clubs I know in the area we are in (You in Iowa, me about an hour away in Missouri) now have some sort of coverage. It is almost required now, sadly. Shen now does not have an official car show.....because of a hotwheels car missing its wheels. Tens of thousands of dollars for repainting show cars..... :roll:
Everyone is too afraid to run without.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by DDTrustee » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:41 pm

This incident also says a lot about parental control. I see it here in NEW MEXICO where the alleged victim likely has relatives. Children out of control, picking food and objects up in grocery stores and handling them and then putting them back or not putting them back (eating or unwrapping) without a word from the parents. Allowing loud and obstreperous conduct in public places without a single note of parental control. Say something and the parents flip you off and the ill-mannered kids learn their conduct is OK and condoned, even encouraged by their also ill-mannered parents!
The contrast in the general public versus conduct of servicemen’s’ children here is stunning. At an airshow on a military base open only to servicemen’s’ children I heard ‘sir’ and permission requests!........children AND parents asked permission to sit on the seat or look inside the hood, etc. Compared to another event at the same venue open to the public where canvas seats were stood on with dirty, grimy, street shoes, children sitting on jeep hoods, where every knob and dash button was pushed or twisted (even to the point of pushing the starter button on a Gamma Goat and moving the vehicle three feet forward while the owner was standing next to it and saying ‘don’t touch.’) More than half of this Memphis incident was caused by abdication of parental control.
That said, McFarland is an idiot for setting the stage for the fools to play out and demonstrate their stupidity. What was not so angelic Angel doing while her kid was rooting around in someone else’s belongings as she sat next to her offspring???? She had no control over her kid or, worse yet, actually condoned his conduct – either way she is as responsible for her demise as McFarland.
I believe the MVPA will get out of the case on motion practice….their inclusion in this is the typical “throw something against the wall and see if it sticks” approach to filing plaintiff’s suits. Why? Because insurance companies will virtually always pay something to get out of a suit just to save on litigation costs – not an admission of liability just a plain and simple business decision based on cost savings. Pay $25K to get out up front or pay the defense counsel $100k to do the trial and have the judge let you out!? Plaintiffs’ lawyers depend on that premise. The more entities you can even remotely tag in a lawsuit makes it easier to get $25K from half a dozen defendants’ insurance companies. As a famous orator Everett Dirksen used to say: “Pretty soon you have some real money”…..in the plaintiff’s kitty.
Lots of juries and many judges get it right – just because the policy of insurance is there does not mean the wallet is open for the galactically stupid and their equally despised brethren in the plaintiffs bar. Those that file suits with large numbers of defendants are often just pure ‘settlement’ lawyers that rarely try cases and when they do they lose a good share. Those policies of insurance are not the funding mechanism for those piles or protoplasm that are alive only because there are laws and the Consumer Products Safety Commission 8) preventing their demise for and from idiotic things they do or allow.
Most insurance policies pay for the lawyers to defend those dumb cases….so MVPA is not out of pocket. My bet is that once this case is over the insurance marketplace will be back and the MVPA will once again be able to find reasonable an available event insurance for the parent and affiliates. :mrgreen:
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by John Neuenburg » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:20 am

We need tort reform in every state. Loser of a suit pays the winner's court costs. That's the way it is in some states, like I think California and Georgia.

This is designed to shrink the number of frivolous lawsuits.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by Bill H. » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:42 am

Fellas, I would ask that we please don't turn this into a gun control issue. The gun owner screwed up, the kid and his parent screwed up. The MVPA offered the local club the insurance as they have done for many years. My understanding is that policy has stopped. Should the MVPA be responsible? Well, that will be for the courts to decide.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by rgmutchler » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:11 am

I gotta admit the Bill H.s last post about not turning this into a gun control deal is puzzling. I have seen a discussions about assessing liability, parental control, personal responsibility, parenting, and on and on but not so much about gun control. Is the gun control comment made to try and get that type of discussion going?
Seems most folks have approached this without going totally of over the edge, one way or the other. I sometimes wonder, when I see the Bill H. type post of there isn't an effort take the thread done a radical path rather than allowing it to proceed as it was going.
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Re: Stupidity ruins it for everyone

Post by John Neuenburg » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 am

Bill might have been trying to preempt an issue that is a hot button for many, but has little if anything to do with what happened. It was about not securing a loaded firearm AND not realizing the kinds of things some people do, especially inquisitive children at events.

Regarding the latter, coincidentally I just finished a great book about the two RAF squadrons that flew Short Stirling bombers in support of airborne operations and SAS/SOE insertions and resupply in 1944 and 45. After VE day they had converted to Halifax bombers and there was an open house and air show at the base. The aircrews were in the mess eating while the public was allowed in the airplanes with ground crew supposedly watching the cockpits. In one plane they failed to notice "some grubby little nipper busy unscrewing the escape hatch over the pilot's seat" according to the pilot. "As the show started I took off down the runway, then at 200 feet with max boost and revs, the hatch blew off and I was immediately blinded by the dust blowing up from the floor." Short finish is he was unable to see much and deafened by the slipstream, so he pulled around and pulled off a horrendous, bouncing but safe landing. That there could have been six souls meeting their Maker, all because of an inquisitive and ignorant child.

Let's hope this tragic shooting is educational for those who don't think things through.
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