red 80 tag on jerry can

Manufacturers, production numbers, configurations, etc.
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lucakiki
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Re:the wheat from the chaff...

Post by lucakiki » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:51 am

Ben Dover wrote:The WWII MOGAS cans did not use the post WWII era 9130 "TARES" System FSN's as copied and stenciled on the repainted can.The "TARES" System was introduced in the mid 50's and did not exist during WWII.
The useful part of the above information is appreciated.
According to what can be read, the repro stencil was copied after a post war stenciled information,and that should be taken in due account.
Luca

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Octane rating.

Post by lucakiki » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:21 am

Some information found on "FUELS FOR GLOBAL CONFLICT",by Erna Rich.
Historical Section Office of the Quartermaster General

Many thanks, once again, to the nice american friend who supplied me with a copy of that book. :)

The decision to standardize the octane rating at 80,at the beginning of year 1941, was based on the fact that some tank engines which actually required an even higher grade could be redesigned to operate on 80 grade fuel, but would not stand satisfactorily a further stage of degrading requirements to a lower than 80 grade gas.
The same trend of standardisation was followed also for diesel fuels,and the purpose of the Fuels and Lubricants Division was to secure a specification which would lower both the cetane grade and the viscosity as far as possible without endangering operation, in order to make the product more available and to provide for only two grades,all purpose and Arctic.

There was also an effort of standardisation with the British Military Authorities, as early as June 1942.

The British had developed a tagging system with clips, but this did not work on American made jerrycans,so the Americans promoted the use of tags rather than clips. The Technical Branch of the Fuels and Lubricants division suggested that the British designs and colors be adopted,but using tags rather than clips.


However, since somewhen in their production span American blitz cans did actually allow the use of the tabbed tag, so at some point also the Americans began to use the clip kind, as widely known and shown by pictures.

Apparently, therefore, the sequence that ages ago had been noted by Chuck Lutz and confirmed by Roy/Gerrykan is the correct one.
In my opinion the original question at the beginning of this thread has been answered fairly satisfactorily by now.
Some extra information sneaked in about the alleged magic properties of the 80 octane gasoline should be merely be considered as folklore,deprived of any factual value.
As for the terms Mogas and Combat gas,maybe someone will come up with some solid information about their actual use in WWII, rather than only postwar.
In the meantime, I will stick to gas, short for Gasoline.
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:07 am

A little more information.
The above mentioned report, "FUELS FOR GLOBAL CONFLICT" by Erna Risch is a post WWII report on WWII Quartermaster Corps supply of fuel during the war.
It can be found by doing a websearch. There is no reference to the details such as stenciling and tagging of the fuel containers.

Note the 60's markings on both edges of the 5 Gallon Can containing Combat Gas/MOGAS. The FSN markings are from the Post Korean War U.S. Army "TARES" System.

The Darcy Miller 80 Octane Tag is a good compliment to the OVE of the WWII MB.

The U.S. ARMY had publications available for the use of Transportation Personnel, Motor Officers, Supply Officers, Motor Sergeants, etc. TM9-2800 Standard MILITARY MOTOR VEHICLES, 1 September 43 , (later editions printed in 1948 and 1953 were titled Military Vehicles).
These manuals listed the Fuel Capacity, Average Fuel Consumption in MPG, Range, and Octane Requirement of all vehicles in the Army inventory. enabling the Commanders to estimate the quantity of fuel needed for Convoys and Combat Operations.
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Just to put the records straight...

Post by lucakiki » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:39 am

...and separate the wheat from the shuff.
The resident WWII fuel expert wrote:The above mentioned report, "FUELS FOR GLOBAL CONFLICT" by Erna Risch is a post WWII report on WWII Quartermaster Corps supply of fuel during the war.
Usually reports are written after something has happened,so it is not surprising that while the first edition was dated 1945, the second edition which I actually read, rather than just talk about it, is dated 1952.

Published: Washington, D.C. : U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1945
He then wrote:There is no reference to the details such as stenciling and tagging of the fuel containers.
This statement is not true, and if you actually had read the report you would have not made it.
Page 95,Marking system for containers:do you think it is about Fairy Tales, or just by the title would you guess what might be found there by any average reader?

As for that jerrycan you showed, is by chance that 2/67 stenciled on it a date :?:

How would a postwar stencil demonstrate anything about gasoline being called MOGAS or COMBAT GAS in WWII?
same guy wrote:The Darcy Miller 80 Octane Tag is a good compliment to the OVE of the WWII MB.
While no one could object that that tag is an excellent reproduction, an even occasional and exceptional presence of a tagged blitz can on a WWII jeep has not so far been confirmed by any WWII picture.


Al Brass had pointed out how strictly speaking a tagged can ,whether the tag is an original or a repro,is not correct on a jeep, and I cannot see how what he said could be denied:have you any evidence that might prove him wrong?
Finally he wrote: U.S. ARMY had publications available for the use of Transportation Personnel, Motor Officers, Supply Officers, Motor Sergeants, etc. TM9-2800 Standard MILITARY MOTOR VEHICLES, 1 September 43 , (later editions printed in 1948 and 1953 were titled Military Vehicles).
These manuals listed the Fuel Capacity, Average Fuel Consumption in MPG, Range, and Octane Requirement of all vehicles in the Army inventory. enabling the Commanders to estimate the quantity of fuel needed for Convoys and Combat Operations.
Is it there that you found that you -know-what about higher octane than required having the purpose of enabling a vehicle to go like hell? :roll:
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:31 am

Luca, do mot forget the fact that you copied 1960's stenciling on your GI can. RE:the report, Page 95 does not answer your question on source of Octane tags nor the method ofwording and stenciling the WWII Gasoline Can in preparation for the invasion.
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by lucakiki » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:48 am

Do not mix things.
I used, years ago, a stencil that whas made by somebody else, who had in good faith believed to be reproducing an original.
You pointed out how the stencil could not be war time, and I duly acknowledged that.
Verbatim:

The useful part of the above information is appreciated.
According to what can be read, the repro stencil was copied after a post war stenciled information,and that should be taken in due account.


Interestingly enough,in such wrong repro stencil the terms MOGAS and COMBAT GAS does not appear.

So the question remains: how would your picture ever demonstrate that the term MOGAS or COMBAT GAS was used in WWII?
Another gee member expressed the very same objection about your use of the term MOGAS for WWII.

Page 95 of the report I read does make reference to the problems which required some tagging of sort,about the british tags not fitting american blitz cans, and to the night time difficulties that were overcome by relief embossing of the symbols, etc. etc.
Definitely more information than your it looks good, adds color, and helps to start a conversation wheelbarrow load.
If you really read what is printed in the report,I suggest that you read it a couple more times, so you can understand and retain the easy concepts.
If you have not read it, but just pretend to have read it,try not to make a fool out of yourself and refrain from twisting the truth.
Being able to back up one's statements is a fundamental necessity in any kind of public discussion.
That applies also to the information in that report and to that Mogas magic recipe to make a vehicle go like hell, for which I am not able to type a polite label....
Any chance you might prove that Al Brass was wrong? I do not think so.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by gerrykan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:57 pm

Ben Dover wrote:The "LIFE" D-Day pic is proof that the red "80" medallion on those US Army Issue GI Cans are as American as "apple pie".
Luca,
Sorry, but I think you need to concede that the "PRESTIGIOUS 2011 MVPA PIONEER" is correct in his statement.

I offer the following arguments:

Argument #1
Image
Source: Fuels for Global Conflicts, Erna Risch

Argument #2
Wikipedia wrote:English apple pie recipes go back to the time of Chaucer.
Geoffrey Chaucer c. 1343 – 25 October 1400
Image
Wikipedia wrote:Apple pie in American culture
In the English colonies the apple pie had to wait for the planting of European varieties, brought across the Atlantic, to become fruit-bearing apple trees. The only native apples were crab apples.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_pie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can clearly see, neither WW2 octane tags, nor apple pie are an American invention. :wink: :mrgreen:
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PIES

Post by lucakiki » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:19 pm

Roy, that is amazing!

So when the proud awardee of the Prestigious 2011 MVPA Pioneer award made reference to the Apple pie being as American as the three tabbed octane tag (or was it viceversa?) he was actually being ironical, and implying that the clamp on tags among the allied were at first used by the British?
Unexpectedly brilliant, I must say, and basically agreeing with Chuck Lutz, with you, and finally with me!
Now, I am sure the guy ignores the number of interesting information he could find in that report, if he just would read it for real, rather than just pretend he did... :lol:
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:59 pm

Erna Risch was not there to tag or stencil the cans in question.
And in reference to Al Brass' early remark, he casts some doubt as to the use of the tag in question, I have no doubt, and also believe this topic has worn itself out. But the current 3 tab 80 Octane tags as seen in the LIFE D-Day photo do look nice on the GI Issue 5 gallon gas cans. Am sure Erna Risch would approve.
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by gerrykan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:00 pm

Ben Dover wrote:Erna Risch was not there to tag or stencil the cans in question.
Erna Risch was a lot closer to the subject than some latter day 'pioneers'. :wink:

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Source: Fuels for Global Conflicts by Erna Risch (February, 1945)
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Winkyleaks

Post by lucakiki » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:42 pm

Roy, I could not avoid thinking that at the time when the allied preparing for the invasion were busy filling the jerrycans with gasoline, someone else was busy filling his pants with some different liquid which definitely would not make any vehicle "go like hell"!

By the way, what is the English for bad loser ?
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by Mark Tombleson » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:45 pm

Wiki lower down in that link you listed has a statement about "American as apple pie."

Although apple pies have been eaten since long before the European colonisation of the Americas, "as American as apple pie" is a saying in the United States, meaning "typically American".[12] In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, apple pie became a symbol of American prosperity and national pride. A newspaper article published in 1902 declared that “No pie-eating people can be permanently vanquished.”[13] The dish was also commemorated in the phrase "for Mom and apple pie" - supposedly the stock answer of American soldiers in World War II, whenever journalists asked why they were going to war.[14]
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can from an apple pie point of view

Post by lucakiki » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:28 am

Mark,most likely the guy was using the apple pie way of saying to express his own opinion on the origin of the three tabbed clip on red tags: an opinion which is not necessarily correct.
I for one clearly expressed my disagreement.

Now I will make an attempt and try a recap of what came up in the more recent times on that old subject: the useful part, of course!

A) The three tabbed tag is definitely of German origin. No doubt is possible on this historical truth.

B) The Allied copied the three tab tag, but the question is: was it the British first, or was it the Americans?

We know the Americans had the other kind of tag at first ( the kind on that old Army Motors article) but agreed to use the colors and symbols used by the British on their clip on tags.
We also know that at the beginning the U.S. made screw lid blitz cans did not allow the use of the clip-on tag, because the lower tab could not be slipped through any slot.
For what is worth,as an exemple, neither of my 43 Navy cans has the slot.

C) There is not, so far, any evidence for the use of the tag in the P.T.O.
D) There is not, so far, any picture showing a tagged can on a vehicle showing an even occasional presence of the tag.
E) Even the jerrycans amassed for bulk transport in the ETO did not always have the tag: quite the opposite.
The Life Color picture itself shows how the tag might be missing, if one looks carefully.

At the light of the above I still think that the answer from Al Brass, at the top of this thread,is quite correct, and that an Allied red octane tag on a vehicle mounted can is not likely to represent an historically correct image.
I leave it to the audience to judge the contributions,and I will leave the reading through the lines to those among the audience who do not object to the extra effort required.
Many thanks to the moderation for their tasteful use of their scissors when deemed necessary.
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by REG » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:24 pm

On the issue of mogas, this is the first time I have seen it
1953 Bennett gas can. Dated 20-5-53 so marked on the bottom. It comes with it's original flex spout . This example is in great shape for it's age, it has it's original paint with original patina and it has barely any surface rust. The inside looks fairly clean as well, certainly usable and displayable. Has some stenciling on the outside of the can which reads: "Do not use for ---------- or for lubricant (could not make out one word). Back end is marked: "MOGAS". Embossed from the factory with U.S. on one side and a large G on the other.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1953-Korean-W ... 589b352dfd

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Re: red 80 tag on jerry can

Post by gerrykan » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:32 pm

To fill the blank in the item description, I would say Aviation Fuel.
Roy


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