Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

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D.R.H.
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Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by D.R.H. » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:00 pm

I didn't know where else put the link to this film. I have seen only about 13% of the footage in it and found it to be quite interesting. How about a B-17 towing a glider. And that footage of a C-47 going down in flames?, much clearer and more complete. WOW...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by Klaas » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:44 pm

Personally I don't like this colorisation of B/W film....makes everything green and everybody looks ill. :(

This footage is regularly shown over here on the Discovery Channel and National Geographic TV as past of their WW2 documentaries.
The plane towing the glider is not a B17 but a Short Stirling ( British bomber also used as a glider tug and on re-supply missions in addition to the C47 )
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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by D.R.H. » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:55 pm

Klaas, how did you know that the Tow Aircraft is a Short Stirling? Did the documentary note that it was? I thought it was a B-17. After more aircraft identification, I found a photo of them towing gliders. Thanks for the correction.

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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by Klaas » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:29 pm

Hi D.
I recognised the distinctive wing shape , broad and stubby ( and I knew Stirlings were used)
There was no mention of the tow plane in the documentary.
I keep noticing that in WW2 documentaries airplanes mentioned as being a certain type and the footage shown don't match...ignorance or just-don't-care?
For instance: they talk about a JU88 and show a Do17... :roll:
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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by Klaas » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:41 pm

Some footage I found in my saved sites about Stirlings (and other planes, like Halifaxes) towing Horsa gliders at Market Garden:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv8KsLq4YBA

Enjoy!
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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by John Neuenburg » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:43 am

The Short Stirling was very commonly used as a tug for the Horsa glider and I think the big Hamilcar glider. They also dropped paratroops and supply containers. The Stirling was Britain's first four engine bomber and the largest British design during the war. It was the only one designed from the start with four engines. The Halifax and Lancaster were adaptations of two engined designs. Stirlings were used as strategic bombers until November 1943 when they were withdrawn due to not being able to fly as high as the Lancaster and Halifax types. The Stirling was hamstrung by its original design which required only a 100 foot wingspan to fit into the British hangars of the day. The Halifax and Lancaster had wider wingspans. But with a 14,000 bomb load it was quite the heavyweight hauler.

After November 1943 some Stirling squadrons layed mines and others such as 190 and 620 Squadrons became "special operations" units using Mk III Stirlings to drop supply containers to agents of Special Operations Executive and later to OSS agents, and to the resistance (French Maquis). At this time the Mk IV came out which was adapted for dropping parachutists and towing gliders. The dorsal and nose guns were removed so the only defensive guns on these were the four in the rear turret. On June 6, 1944 most Stirling squadrons carried the British 6th Airborne to Normandy, and did resupply drops until the Mulberry artificial harbors were in place.

Also on June 6 Stirlings started dropping Special Air Service Brigade parachutists and more SOE and OSS agents all around France plus Jedburgh Teams and "Phantom" signalers who were to organize and support resistance units who were fully militarized by then. These troops were to interdict German reinforcements heading toward the Normandy battlefield by rail and road. Starting in late June, gun jeeps were dropped by parachute to the SAS by adapted Halifax bombers and possibly Stirlings. After this campaign was over the Stirling squadrons were involved with the airborne attack on Arnhem.
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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by loni17thAirD » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:04 pm

Very good and thought out article about the British aircraft and airborne forces. I learned some things reading that article. I know the United States used the C-47 (sky train) and C-46 (commando) as glider tugs, but they to also experimented with other aircraft. The United States even tried towing the CG-4A WACO with the P-38 (lighting).

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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by John Neuenburg » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:35 am

I don't know about B-24s tugging gliders but the Carpetbagger unit had specially modified B-24s for dropping OSS agents and supplies. The ball turret was removed to create a hole for the parachutists which was the way the RAF planes were set up. British C and H containers in the bomb bay. Extended front plexiglass to better see forward and down and a blister for the pilot for the same reasons. Drops were mostly at night.

Here is an Armstrong Whitworth Whitley and Horsa glider. This airplane was I think a top finalist in the "Ugly Bomber" contest:
Whitley towing glider PNG.png

Bonus picture - a Halifax dropping a jeep:
Halifax dropping jeep.png
The first time a motor vehicle was dropped by parachute was in late June 44 to the SAS. Many jeeps were dropped to them at dozens of locations in France. Machine guns and the extra fuel tanks they carried on the rear fenders were dropped separately. Four chutes were normally used.

I apologize to the OP if this got his thread off track....
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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by loni17thAirD » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:41 am

The British were very innovative in WWII, I'm not surprised about them air dropping jeeps. The British were the first to put armor on the airborne battlefield. During WWII in "operation Varsity" the British 6th Airborne Division delivered M-22 Locust tanks in Horsa gliders. Good concept, bad idea. Several of the gliders crashed with the M22's and only a handful made to the drop zone intact.

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Re: Operation Market Garden 17--25 September 1944.

Post by John Neuenburg » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:06 pm

loni17thAirD wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:41 am
The British were very innovative in WWII, I'm not surprised about them air dropping jeeps. The British were the first to put armor on the airborne battlefield. During WWII in "operation Varsity" the British 6th Airborne Division delivered M-22 Locust tanks in Horsa gliders. Good concept, bad idea. Several of the gliders crashed with the M22's and only a handful made to the drop zone intact.
I think the tank carriers were all Hamilcars which were designed for the M22 Locust and British Tetrarch tanks or two Bren/Universal Carriers. 17,000 pound capacity for those versus around 6,000 pounds for the Horsa. Hamilcars carried Tetrarchs and Carriers to Normandy. This were BIG - 110 feet wingspan. A B-17 bomber was 104 feet. Horsa was 88 feet.
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